kyburg | A word of caution.

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A word of caution.

You're hearing left, right and center about those octuplets. And their six siblings at home.

Be very careful who you listen to for information.

The people who did the work ain't talking. And they won't. The fact the family (and I'm not talking about grandparents who are blabbing in their front yards and claiming huge houses somewhere and all that) haven't come forward to identify themselves should be a hint.

They don't want your help, they know they're pariahs and thank you very much this was their choice. They want it, they'll ask for it. Until then - MYOB.

You don't know - you won't know - until they tell you themselves. That's HIPAA, that's your privacy laws at work, and pay attention to who is being shown in the news reports. They're pretty heavy on pictures of the medical staff, and the hospital. They're the ones who want to talk. (And they are CHUFFED.)

Frankly, the greatest strain on that facility right now is the loss of subscriber base due to people losing their jobs right now (people lose their jobs, they lose coverage - simple). Not one family with eight children, who clearly have paid to play. (And have been paying family rates for some time - come on, think.)

Be aware, informed and don't let anyone rip you off and play you.

You don't know. And that's a perfectly good place to be in this matter.

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Where I am (mildly) curious is:

a. if they had fertility treatment

b. did their OB fully inform them of the risks of multiples

c. if they were fully informed if they chose to go ahead

The only reason I am curious is because based on my experience dealing with OBs who offer fertility treatments, some of them see the parents as just a cash cow.

But fortunately, HIPPA prevents anybody save the parents and their doctors knowing for certain.

Your assuming they are paying for thier medical bills. I've heard that the lady applied for bankruptcy a year and a half ago.

THANK YOU. Everyone is simply assuming these people must be on the public dime somehow and how dare they and why didn't she selectively abort and blah blah blah. I am trying so hard not to scream.

Note: We don't know if they are or are not on Medicare. While Medicare pays regardless of what the woman chose once the pregnancy has started, again, I suggest reserving judgment because we don't know what their situation is. There are people who pay their own way or their families help.

That said, all or some of the 8 could very well have died due to the mother's choice to not interfere. But then again, her choice to leave it up to nature (or her god) is itself a choice even if it may allow her some amelioration (in her mind) for the risk and predicament she placed herself in if she chose fertility drugs (which the couple is entirely responsible for on that choice).

The fact the family (and I'm not talking about grandparents who are blabbing in their front yards and claiming huge houses somewhere and all that) haven't come forward to identify themselves should be a hint.

? the grandparents LIVE WITH the mother and are caring for all her children. How do they not count as "family"? There doesn't appear to BE any other family, other than the mom.

I think there is some reason they haven't come out at all. And I guess their privacy should be respected.

But all I've heard of is 1 set of grandparents and the mother - no mention of the father at all.

I know there have people been people who've sucessfully raised 14 kids. But not with 8 of them having the same exact birthday!

HIPPA prevents anybody save the parents and their doctors knowing for certain

I wonder though whether there will be an investigation into this. It sounds like there was very likely some shady malpractice going on.

But unless someone brings a suit, would there be an investigation?

You bet there would, if the outcome had been bad - because the only way to get enough support for care would have been through the legal system.

When everything is good? Not so much - and likely, nothing more will be checked.

They're Kaiser. That implies private, HMO coverage. If they were without coverage, they would be in a county facility as soon as they were stabilized. Believe me. (And this is the facility that dumped patients on skid row by taxi, remember?)

You can be bankrupt one year and have insurance after, neh?

Come on. You know the rules on what people say.

Watch this be all as a result of someone being followed home from the hospital. Hilarity resulted.

Private conjecture is one thing. You can think, wonder and ponder all you like.

But nobody has the right to know *anything* about this - unless they are directly involved, and they're not needing a press conference. And so far, nobody has asked for anything more than they were due - medical care per a HMO contract, and the providers are delighted with the results. That's been the whole angle from the get go.

They're in a Kaiser facility - that implies coverage by a private carrier. *shrug* Believe me, they'd be out in a heartbeat after being stabilized, otherwise.

The fertility doc may *recommend* only one or two embryo implantations at a time.

But that decision, ultimately, rests with the mother. Her body, her right -- just as with abortion, at least up to the cut-off point.

Just the fact that eight were implanted is not indicative of malpractice -- unless one can prove that the parents were not fully informed.

People lose their tiny minds when children are involved. You might remind them that if they're screaming about how those parents could KILL their five children after losing their jobs - that they consider the public opinion surrounding having so many in the first place.

I'm really curious what drives this furor. Is it envy? (Kids get everything? People with more kids get more than they deserve?)

The irony is these babies were born in the same hospital system that fired the two parents who killed their kids and then killed themselves. Yeah, I'd identify myself. Suuuuure.

I'm not so sure the family is reporting accurately. I sense an ambush after someone was followed home from the hospital, myself.

My two cents.

Just a teeny nitpick: Medicare is for elderly people over 65 and Medicaid is the program for poor people younger than 65.

I really can't imagine Medicare paying for a woman aged 65 or over to get pregnant....

I'm not really sure how the medical boards work. Maybe someone would have had to make a complaint? But maybe one of the doctors involved in her obstetrics care would have done so?

I don't see anyone complaining a whit. *shakes head* Nope. You have to bring a suit - and so far, nobody is complaining.

Public opinion, another matter. But that doesn't translate into a lawsuit that one could try, right?

*laughs* No, they don't. Perhaps he was thinking of MediCal(Medicaid).

Which, I might add, more babies are delivered on in California than any other payment method, including private pay.

You deliver babies - not make them - on MediCal, I should clarify, of course.

The fertility doc may *recommend* only one or two embryo implantations at a time.

But that decision, ultimately, rests with the mother. Her body, her right -- just as with abortion, at least up to the cut-off point.

you are mistaken. Fertility clinics set their own rules about what they are willing to do. My fertility clinic would not put back more than two embryos for me, because I was young, had children prior and no failed IVF cycles. This is standard. Reputable fertility clinics do not want to be a party to high order multiple births; it's considered to be not in the best interest of the patient (similarly, no surgeon is just going to cut your arm off for you for no reason).

Putting back anything close to 8 embryos - particularly for a young women with six prior children, two of whom were under 2 years old - is completely outside the accepted standard of practice for fertility medicine. the fertility practitioners community is pretty appalled.

similarly, no doctor is REQUIRED to provide abortions. If they decide not to do so, no woman can make them.

You have to bring a suit - and so far, nobody is complaining.

I don't think you do have to bring a suit to get someone's medical license revoked or suspended. And I think you can simply call in a complaint to the licensing board.

As for you knowing whether someone called in such a complaint, how would you know?

*taps chin* Hmmm. I don't recall any legal suit being brought to be an easily known matter to anyone but the involved parties. You might have to put notices in the paper for some things, but every filing? Not so much.

It certainly seems to get known, though - you remember the whole fracas over the embryo storage issues the program over at UCI had, some years ago, right? That was hardly a secret or hard to find out about.

You do have a bring a complaint, though. And since this is a board matter - it would generate some discomfort on the part of the people who'd be called. That's probably the method I would rely on to know one way or the other. Doctors can be VERY pissy on people wasting their time on anything but what they want to be doing.

*snaps fingers* Wait a minute. Licensure is a State function - and pretty much in the open. Any bright penny who follows people home from the hospital probably has someone watching filings right now with the Health Department. So once someone filed a complaint, had it dealt with and summarily lost their license - tada. That's when you'd know. I think.

(I should ask the family who works in this business. I'll get back to you.)

Sure it's outside standard practice. Doesn't mean the docs won't DO it -- particularly at 10 grand and up per egg. Key word being reputable. My experience with IVF docs (professionally, not as a patient) is that bloody few of them are.

And of course no doctor is required to perform an abortion. Hell, they aren't even required to give a referral if they opt out. Doesn't mean the patient can't shop around.

Doesn't mean the docs won't DO it -- particularly at 10 grand and up per egg.

?? I'm not sure what you're talking about here. IVF does not charge "by egg" even if you're talking donor eggs (which does not seem to be the case here). IVF is app. $12,000 per round of IVF. How many eggs you get and how many are put back makes no difference to the cost.

My experience with IVF docs (professionally, not as a patient) is that bloody few of them are.

I think you are confused about IVF doctors and IVF in general. For one thing, ob/gyns do not provide IVF. Some will do IUI, that is about it (though I agree with you that ob/gyns who do fertility work are generally sketchy - cause they know nothign about it).

She's here in California with me. You'd be amazed.

That said - I'm kinda wondering if they did one round of IVF and instead of storing any of the embryos, they put *everything* in and let fly.

(That's also assuming they did IVF, which I am VERY skeptical of. I smell desperation for information, and some people who might not have been entirely well-informed as to the nomenclature.)

Sorry, from my professional standpoint, they all get lumped together -- I edited an OB/GYN journal, and some of the repro endocrinologists wrote for me.

And yes, per treatment -- my bad.

Honestly, I think the whole IVF/fertility thing is one giant racket. It's astonishing what those guys would say to each other at medical conventions when they're the only doctors in the room, so they're the only ones who count.

That mid-90's case at UCI with the stolen embryos? I knew...oh I knew who the doctor was even before they named names. He had submitted articles to my journal.

Opportunistic. Sleazebag.

Medi-cal can be Kaiser in plenty of areas in CA.

IVF my ass, I bet this is internet mail order clomid.

Yes, but she just spent 8 mil (in the next year, care for those kids is likely to be a mil each) + how ever much lifetime care some of those kids are likely to need of someones money.

Unless she has a great income, she just found a nice way to cheat public support, even if she is not on the public dime, it is likely to make fiscal sense for her to get on it.

No hospital in the world will have the guts to throw out a case drawing this much attention, regardless of what they've done in the past and regardless of when the mother's insurance runs out.

The mere fact that they've been caught dumping patients on the street in the past will keep reporters watching. As long as reporters watch, they can't dump the kids or remove them to a hospital for poor people.

This woman can make money off the publicity generated by having a bazillion kids for a while at least. The fact that she hasn't said anything yet means paid exclusive and possilbly book and movie rights to me, but I'm wrong all the time. Ask anyone.

I know they can accept Medi-Cal, but don't forget. We got an inside track on this one. I just can't talk much about it. :)

Also, even if they were? It would be stabilize and transport. Particularly in our area where we are VERY dense on resources. There are other places to step down to, coverage wise.

I dunno about the publicity. They seem to be very motivated to avoid it at every turn right now.

The hospital issued statements yesterday on how she can to be their patient as well - npr.org probably has the story as well on their site. They took her at three months gestation, counseled her and so on.

Making money? Shoot, they could be doing it RIGHT NOW - and aren't.

I don't understand the hostility. Are you jealous that she could...regardless of whether they are or not?

I mean it can be your medi-cal provider. That, I know.

So I get the inside track thing... but, if they had Kaiser through Medi-Cal they wouldn't be transfered. A friend of ours up here had Kaiser through Medi-Cal and her premie stayed at Kaiser for all 3mo of her care.

In San Diego, Sonoma, Marin, Sacramento, and now Alameda counties, Kaiser contracts with Medi-Cal to provide managed care for patients.

http://files.medi-cal.ca.gov/pubsdoco/contact/docs/oos_mngcare.pdf

At least to me, my frustration with this situation is that a single mom, who jsut filed for bankruptcy and lost her house does NOT have the means to care for 14 kids. Kids are expensive. So if she wasn't on Medi-Cal before, she is now, those babies are going to max out what there insurance will cover, and they WILL be collecting Medi-Cal then. Your average 30-week preemie needs in the neighborhood of $1mil in care before they ever leave the hospital, and these 8 babies are not average.

Though my frustration isn't at what she did to us tax payers so much as being sad for the life those kids (all 14 of them) are going to lead. Her older kids will likely lose their childhoods in helping care of their siblings, and the younger ones will likely have a lot of developmental issues for not having been cooked as long as they needed.

That said, I'm not all seriously upset, as it's not my life and not my problem. I just don't have much respect for her position, and would NOT make those choices myself.

What.

This isn't any of those, hon. *winks*

*eyeroll* I told you. I CAN'T TALK.

They're also reporting now she rescinded the order and paid her debts. I smell so much desperation from the LA Times, it's a stench. Really. So far, nobody but the grandparents are talking - not a word from anyone else, no one. (Would you appreciate your parents talking about you this way? Didn't think so.)

For the rest - ghads would people please GET IT - I CAN'T TALK.

They're nine weeks early - and so far, that appears to be the biggest reason they're still in the NICU. Some of the singletons born to co-workers of Jim's were sicker, stayed longer and are still fab three years later by comparison.

Watch them be just fine, regardless. I've known families with 20 children in them. Mensa, most of them, in the one family I know (5 bio, the balance adopted).

Everyone wants to step in and run someone else's life for some reason here.

And no, you don't end up on the public dime by default if you have kids. The only thing you end up on public dime for is dialysis - that's the automatic "you're on Medicare" switch.

The rest, not so much.

It's kind of creepy, the way people are so clearly displacing their own frustrations onto this complete stranger.

And of course, they'll believe what they like. In the absence of information, some folks don't care what they fill the vacuum with, neh?

(Would I ever do this? Cracker, are you crazy?)

I never EVER said that having kids automatically means you end up on the public dime.

Having a preemie, however, much less eight is another matter entirely. Being really active in high risk pregnancy communities, I've know a LOT of preemies, ranging from 12 weeks early, to my own, moderately early 36 weeker. I have never known one single family with a sub 4 pounder in an incubator NOT end up getting their medical bills subsidized by medi-caid or medi-cal.

I have my opinions. You do. I do. They do. I don't really have any desire to run someone else's life. However, my opinion do not come from a lack of data. I know how sapping it is to have one infant and a toddler. I know what's it's like to have two infant to care for. I know what a tax on ALL of one's resources it is to just raise two kids, with an active and involved partner. I've also run a daycare where I was one of two primary care givers for 14 kids 12 hours a day 5 days a week. For a single parent to sign up to raise her 6 kids and throw in 8 more infants, some of whom WILL me medically challenged (show me a single litter of children that doesn't have a kid with medical challenges) isn't cool to me, and she will suffer- which is her choice, however I think it was an unfair burden to saddle her kids with.

At least if she were doing this all fundie Christian style, she'd have popped them out with a partner and nicely spaced most of the time.

I get that... I'm just saying that just because one has Kaiser Medi-Cal does not mean that one would automatically get transfered to a county hospital.

No. I smell a rat. There's something very bizarre and unethical going on with this pregnancy. Something is wrong here, I just don't know what. Its a given that some of these kids will be handicapped for life, small as they were at delivery.

I still wonder if she's holding out for more money, but there are also media reports that she is mentally unstable. Who would implant all those embryos in an unstable woman who already has 6 kids and how can she take care of them? Its either money or she's afraid of something.

The best way to keep reporters hanging about is to tell them nothing. I know that from personal experience. Does keeping reporters hanging about keep her kids at a nice hospital instead of the county one?

And yes, the taxpayers are going to end up paying to raise these kids eventually. I'd venture to say each kid will end up with $2-3 mil in medical expenses before they go to school, nevermind diapers and food.

It just took time. Now she is trying to get money from the media for interviews.

She got a warm body to run interference so her parents could get some sleep. Who'd blame her? Oh, wait.

Do you hear the strains of Don Henley's Dirty Laundry yet?

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A word of caution.

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