I can't get NO....satisfaction....

[kyburg]

Let's see.

You don't need to take Jim's word for it anymore. Even down to the names...which he was a good boy about and didn't tell anyone about either.

Hooray! (And so much for Tiajuana Taxi Fertility Hookups.) Note the words 'there is no law against...' - this is a evaluation by peers, and I hope we find out what they decide. But keep in mind - there is no law, and this won't create one. (Consider what the enforcement of one might look like, BTW. Just think about it for a moment, it'll come to you.)

Let me get this straight. When the McCaughey septuplets were born in 1997, President Clinton called to congratulate the parents, who were given a free 12-passenger van, Pampers for life, furniture, food, and a custom built house. Last spring, when Michelle and Jim Bob Duggar got pregnant with their 18th child, they announced it on the Today Show and their reality TV show launched that fall. When Nadya Suleman, 33, gave birth to octuplets on January 26th, she got revulsion, ridicule and death threats. A talk radio host who called her a freak said his listeners were prepared to boycott any company that helped out mother or babies. Jimmy Kimmel declared that "Golden retrievers do not have that many kids."

Uh, yawp. Single, POC and oh mi ghad IRAQI. SPICY.

(You know, I'd almost expect some people to have a little empathy for people who have somewhat toxic parents....but noooooo. Guess not.) And before you hit that comment button - keep in mind. The lady had choices. Since we see more of the grandfather doing childcare publically than the grandmother, you figure it out. Watch the grandkids leave that house Real Soon. As soon as enough money shows up - and it will show up. (Just keep making those death threats on all those sponsored websites, kids!)

Quick quiz.

Who administers 'food stamp' programs?

- Department of the Treasury
- Department of Homeland Security
- The Internal Revenue Service
- Department of Agriculture (*dingdingding*)

Also, the going term is Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program - not food stamps. Note the key word - there is no intention for this ever to be the sole support for anyone. (I love the fact they've moved it off paper and to electronic ATM card. No, you can't pool the change from buying a candy bar with a coupon until you can buy liquor anymore. Too bad. *snickers*)

Oh yeah, $490 a month is a REAL GOOD incentive to have a kid. (...where do people get this crap...) And of course you top out, regardless of the number of people in the household.

Defend her? Not so much. What I find amazing is the vitriol where in just about every other case I know of, there was nothing but cooes and praise for being 'so absolutely PERFECTLY FEMALE' for being, well - successful at being female. That's it, isn't it? The pastel pinks and blues, the heft of the rewards thrown, the fairy tale twittering. The strokes - oh yes - THE STROKES.

(I'm catching echoes of it adopting right now, and I know it when I see it. It's perceived sainthood and I'm hip. I got much the same when I was the wife of a terminal patient. It's not helpful, except as a signal that they're not going to bitchslap you.)

I'm glad information is getting out. It's making our lives easier not having to keep our mouths shut. (How many times does WE CAN'TALK make sense?)

What I'm watching for? Terminations at the hospital of people who were peeking into health records when they had no reason to. Yeah, it's all electronic, all tagged with who was doing the peeking and we've had plenty of evidence there's a zero tolerance policy for fraud - though I think Kaiser might handle these a bit differently after a whole family died when both parents were fired for it. Remember - same hospital system.

Whatta parade. Can we talk about Sully instead?

Comments

[caitlin.livejournal.com]

Personally, I think no one should be applauded for having bunches and bunches of kids.

This planet cannot support that many kids per family anymore, IMO.

18 kids?! No thank you. 14? Same answer.

May be mean of me, but there you go.

C.

[trillsie.livejournal.com]

I agree. I personally think the doctor needs to loose his license over it. He obviously did not have good judgment in this. One can't help but wonder how many other IVFs he has done to people who simply has no way to support the child(ren) that will be produced.

My husband and I have 4 kids and it's difficult. I cannot imagine having more than that. Any more and my children would not have the individual attention that they need.

[kyburg.livejournal.com]

*nod* Hence, adoption. For more than a couple of reasons. But by that token, that doesn't give me any kind of right to tell someone else what to do. Not ever.

(Man. What a mess.)

[neintales.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I'm rather freaked out by how much more accepted the actual THREATENING people are for this latest case.

Me, I think a ton of kids is pretty crazy, unless POSSIBLY you truly are a multi-millionaire who can support them fully without needing lots of aid. I laud family members, friends, and community members who volunteer to help out big families. But it's not my thing, it weirds me out to put one's family into a situation where they do have to rely on others so much.

I guess I can sort of understand that some people really Just Love Children That Much, for whatever reason.

I actually found the Duggans to be far creepier than previous or latter cases because of their "Well this is what women are FOR!" attitude and the way they seem to be raising all their female children for the SOLE future of mommyhood. Haven't really had the belief systems of previous or post-Duggan huge families shoved into my face quite so much. The smugly uniform 'family dynamic' was very appalling to me. (Naming all kids with names that begin with certain letters, etc.)

My mom was from a pretty large family (10 kids). Not terribly well off. Not terribly poor, but not quite middle class either. Their family worked, but it was tough going, and the oldest girls didn't really get to have the childhoods that their little sibs got because they had to help rear those younger sibs. Tensions did ensue over this from time to time. Fortunately, they all love each other very much and as adults are quite close, but I can see how things could easily go the other way towards permanent resentment.

My dad was from a poorer family that had 6 children living in a one-room house with a pretty much single-mom situation. (His dad was a cripple, and died youngish.) And again, it somehow did work, they did squeak by. But I know he did Not want that kind of situation for HIS family. Again, the older kids were so busy helping take care of their younger siblings/cousins that they never really got 'childhoods'.

So.. yeah. Big families. They happen, either planned or due to lack of planning, and they have to somehow deal with themselves. I think there's right reasons (love) and wrong reasons (political/religious zealotry). And to me in the modern day and age where HOPEFULLY child/infant mortality is generally lower than in the 'olden days', it just doesn't make sense unless you truly frame it with the 'love' option, which doesn't have to make sense, I suppose.

And the snap-judgement calls and HATRED when you don't, can't, are Not Invited To know all the reasons and allowances are just a bit. Um. Nuts?

Ok, sorry, rambly. But I think I have a point in there somewhere.

[kyburg.livejournal.com]

I've known of multiple families with nine or more kids. The high water mark is the one with twenty.

Somehow, it all works out. Without asking anyone's permission.

For me? Wouldn't do IVF, considered it too expensive just to get pregnant with an uncertain outcome. I haven't spent the same amount of $$$ for two adoptive process that are arguably some of the most expensive known, either.

There's plenty of crazy to go around here. I just wish more people would see it and go whoa, and hit the pause button.

[cerulean-me.livejournal.com]

The McCaughey's ONLY had their septuplets and one older child- NOT 14! 8 kids, to parents- not so unreasonable.

The Duggars, while I don't agree with their lifestyle, at least generally have their babies one at a time. With two parents (not knocking the single- just someone to share the work load with), and by the time kid #10 was born, kid #1 could read, write, dress himself, and help out around the house. By the time kid #18 was born, kids #1, #2, #3, and #4 were not kids anymore.

This woman has 14 kids, 8 of whom are likely to be very high needs, all under the age of 8- her mom is leaving, her dad is going to Iraq to earn money- and she's alone taking care of all of them. It's sick, and it WRONG to do to those kids. They are the ones who have to pay for her choices- THIS IS WHY PEOPLE ARE UPSET. Her choice was deliberate and selfish.

Are those "old" photos like Dr. Gupta's quote was old? Because of 8 babies, I count at LEAST 4 feeding tubes, and we can't even totally see all of their mouths.

[kyburg.livejournal.com]

You don't have dates, do you? You just have the date the photos were released, not the day they were taken.

So easily led. *shakes head* Question Authority, hon. Everywhere it lurks, in whatever guise it cloaks itself.

[bronxelf-ag001.livejournal.com]

Can I ask a serious question?

When people hoard animals that they cannot adequately care for, we remove those animals in their best interest.

Can someone explain to me why children deserve less of a standard of care?

[eyelid.livejournal.com]

They don't. There is no evidence as yet of any abuse or neglect of the children.

What we DON'T do is take kids away from parents based on our ASSUMPTION that they may be abused/neglected. Well, except in the case of gay parents in some states, I guess, and I disagree with that.

[melodicblue.livejournal.com]

I believe in quality not quantity. I actually had a conversation regarding that with a co-worker when I was pregnant. I said I wanted to stay at one child for a while, and then maybe have a second one, but that's it. He asked me why, and I said that it's a financial struggle and I want to be able to devote a all my attention to my kids and raise them as well as I possibly can. I don't feel that if I had a lot of them that I'd be able to do that without somehow slighting one or more of them, and I don't want to cause damage or neglect a child in that way. He then proceeded to tell me that I needed to just keep having kids, without worrying about all that, because "God would provide". I don't begrudge people their right to believe what religion or whatever they want, but I just can't trust to that. I don't believe that we are here to have babies and someone will coddle us through that. I believe that we have to do everything we can and exhaust every resource in our power before we are worthy of the assistance of a higher power. Most cultures in the world prize children above all others; we should be sure to take good care of them.

[kyburg.livejournal.com]

Try to adopt more than 2 children per bedroom in your home. You won't be able to.

Nobody does the same if you have them yourself, of course.

[betnoir.livejournal.com]

Lemme say this about that.

Across the board, not one of 'em shoulda gotten freebies. Not a one. Their choice.

Me, I will boycott that interview tonight. Just as I did with the other families. I will not condone her actions by jacking NBC's ratings.

[kyburg.livejournal.com]

Everybody else is doing that work for me. I don't have to be a part of the circus...and that's a personal choice. I don't have to feed the machine, and I'm not going to.

There are things I don't have to be a part of - and this is one of them.

[eyelid.livejournal.com]

Uh, yawp. Single, POC and oh mi ghad IRAQI. SPICY.

Well, single, unemployed, supported by her exhausted parents, and with six kids already. I think is more the problem for the public. I personally don't care, but I think you're misrepresenting the concerns.

somewhat toxic parents....

"toxic"? The grandparents have been housing, feeding, and caring for not only the daughter, but her 6 kids. They've gone into bankruptcy because of it.

I definitely think the grandparents were enabling this woman's behavior, and therefore they in part brought this on themselves. But I certainly don't think their understandable frustration with the situation is somehow "toxic" or indicative that they are bad or mean parents. How many parents are willing to house/feed/care for their adult children in the first place?

The grandmother disapproves of her granddaughter's choices because the GRANDMOTHER is the one taking care of and providing for the kids. She doesn't want her grandchildren going hungry/uncared for, so she feels forced into this position. Her reaction is understandable.

[kyburg.livejournal.com]

They've gone into bankruptcy, or are they reporting the daughter's (recinded) filing again?

I haven't seen a single picture of the grandmother with a child. Plenty of the grandfather, and he's been the one most verbally defensive with the 'get lost' rhetoric.

And the media is just eating. This. Up.

Gee, and since the PR firm came online. Who'd have thunk it?

[ms-hecubus.livejournal.com]

What I find amazing is the vitriol where in just about every other case I know of, there was nothing but cooes and praise for being 'so absolutely PERFECTLY FEMALE' for being, well - successful at being female.

I see you've never been on a community, message board or blog when the Duggars are discussed. ;)

To be honest, I would have forgotten she even exists by now if you weren't following and posting the story. I don't think I'm that out of the ordinary either. I don't agree with her choices, but there's nothing I can do about it so I ignore it. *shrug* What else can one do?

[kyburg.livejournal.com]

*giggles* Oh yes, I have. Just walk into a consignment store for kids clothes, etc.? You'd think she was the second coming.

[reannon.livejournal.com]

What amazes me are the people who fully support Woman's Right to Choose in all things from conception to whether or not she works, but this woman's choices were all supposed to be made for her. She chooses to have embryos implanted and that was supposed to be taken away by her doctor. Even though her previous experience was that only one embryo of the six would survive, she chooses not to have them reduced, and THAT choice was supposed to be taken away by her doctor. They magically transform into eight and all survive by a fucking miracle of science, and she's stepping up to an enormous job by herself, but that choice should be taken away by the state before she even gets the chance to succeed or fail. She chooses to stay at home with her babies - which she absolutely would need to, because I can't imagine how you work a job with all those children - but that choice should be taken away from her as well, because, well, I can't keep track.

Consider that if this woman were married, not a word would have been spoken. Because mothers are supposed to be married. *eyeroll* For a society that not only encourages but DEMANDS that you make your own choices about how you live your life, for better or for worse, everyone on all sides of the pro-life/pro-choice/adoption/etc. arguments seems to want to take away this woman's choices. Do I agree with them? Hell no, I want another baby but I know I can't right now, and that means probably not ever given my financial state and advancing age. But the hypocrisy your link points out and the disgusting level of vitriol aimed at this woman tells me nobody's really backing anyone's "right to choose" here.

[feyandstrange.livejournal.com]

I'd be speaking out if she was married, unless her husband was providing enough money to hire an army of nannies, nurses and carers.

And as per the CDC, she had far more embryos implanted than is standard.

Your right to choose, like anyone else's, stops when it starts to impact on other people's lives. We don't let parents choose to risk the lives of their children, either through neglect or abuse, or by "choosing" to implant far more embryos than is standard.

[kyburg.livejournal.com]

And the father is known, and was married to her through all the previous pregnancies...except this last one.

He's just not interesting enough, I guess.

[feyandstrange.livejournal.com]

AFAIK there were no doctors involved with the Quiverful family.

I think there do need to be guidelines - possibly involving doctors losing their licenses - for excessive embryo implantation. (And the McCaugheys did get threats and anger, as well.)

Plus I want to know who the hell paid for that fertility service. That stuff isn't cheap. The idea of sinking that much money into a fertility service when *you can't afford to feed the babies* horrifies me.

And? Don't we have any requirements about counseling for IVF parents? This woman is obviously suffering from some mental health issues, which she is trying to solve by having too many babies for her to take care of at once. She didn't need octuplets, she needs therapy.

Back in the forties, my grandmother lost a baby and went nuts with grief. The doctors' advice at the time was "Make her have another one, she'll get over it." That didn't end well, as the unwanted baby-my aunt-can tell you. (Til the day she died in her nineties, crazy grandma barely acknowledged my aunt, even though my aunt took care of her for half her life. But she mistook me for the dead baby girl...)

"I want to have a baby because it will love me and I'll be a mommy and someone will always love me!" is something I see too much among teen moms, too. That's not a desire to reproduce; it's a desire to be loved. That's a need for therapy and a better sense of self-esteem. And a mom with those issues is not going to be the best mom, is she?

I can hand you horror stories from the boy who was the last of eleven children in a religious family, the baby mom didn't want to have, neglected and disliked and abused. He's one on a long list I have.

People who have babies just to have a baby - not because they want to raise a child - or because God says to make more - are likely to provide poorer care to those children.

Sadly, it's harder for us to criticize the ones who claim religious reasons than the ones who don't. I would be very interested to see a case of an IVF mother who does this and claims the Quiverful logic for it despite a lack of a husband. Would they adopt her or revile her?

[kyburg.livejournal.com]

I can believe that they placed six every time, that I have no problem believing.

If she used funds from a settlement, the amount of that settlement was also counted as income and you don't get dispersements when you have too much of that.

You can also borrow the funds. If she filed for bankruptcy, then she's on the hook for it now, no way out (I was told she later recinded the order and paid her debts).

(God, I know enough about both sides of this to talk about it. That shouldn't be true. I shouldn't know this stuff.)

Oh, you always had another right away when something bad happened. Kind of like getting another puppy. *shakes head* Not much the same thing, and definitely with mixed results.

Having children is ALWAYS a selfish endeavor, up front. Why would anyone willingly throw themselves into that great beyond - there are no guarantees, nothing you can tie to - hell, you have NO idea who you're going to get! And nobody asked to be here - we all came into the world the same way. As a great unknown, and if we're lucky - on trust. As part of an agenda, far more likely. Thankfully, that doesn't last long - reality takes over real quick. Kind of like the old saying about swamps and alligators.

For the last - the Catholic church does not allow assisted reproduction any more than it allows birth control or abortion. (You're to deal with you reproductive issues with prayer, and trust that this is what's supposed to be.) You play with this, you have to accept the consequences - and after having one set of multiples, there are no secrets about it happening again...or even in higher order, which is exactly what happened.

I can't speak for the Quiverfull group - but I'd have to say they'd be aghast. Then roll up their sleeves and get to work again.

[the-paulr.livejournal.com]

This woman is obviously suffering from some mental health issues, which she is trying to solve by having too many babies for her to take care of at once. She didn't need octuplets, she needs therapy.

I was thinking the same thing. But, if it's true that she previously had six placed but only one implanted (I'm not sure if that's the proper term) as others have said, then there may not have been a reason to suggest she seek counseling before the last treatment.

Based on the little I've seen since, however, I think that she definitely needs counseling more than anything else.

Useful data

[feyandstrange.livejournal.com]

THe 2005 CDC report on assisted reproductive technology, birth rates, and so on.

http://www.cdc.gov/ART/ART2005/sect5_fig49-60.htm#f54

I will caution that not every case is the same, that some mothers who have severe implantation issues may use more embryos, and so on. However, modern techniques (5-day blastocyst transfer) seem to prefer an implantation rate of mo more than 4 embryos.

Re: Useful data

[kyburg.livejournal.com]

Except we don't know they attempted that, and go nowhere for a few tries. We only know about the successful attempts, right?

I'm comfortable with letting the Board do its due dilligence and report back with their findings.

The rest is just hot air and idle chatter, neh?

[auntiesiannan.livejournal.com]

Uh, you might want to get that hindsight checked...there was a big hue and cry over the Mccaughey Fuctuplets, and the Duggars are pretty much unversally reviled, as are Jon & Kate.