I can't get NO....satisfaction....

[kyburg]

Let's see.

You don't need to take Jim's word for it anymore. Even down to the names...which he was a good boy about and didn't tell anyone about either.

Hooray! (And so much for Tiajuana Taxi Fertility Hookups.) Note the words 'there is no law against...' - this is a evaluation by peers, and I hope we find out what they decide. But keep in mind - there is no law, and this won't create one. (Consider what the enforcement of one might look like, BTW. Just think about it for a moment, it'll come to you.)

Let me get this straight. When the McCaughey septuplets were born in 1997, President Clinton called to congratulate the parents, who were given a free 12-passenger van, Pampers for life, furniture, food, and a custom built house. Last spring, when Michelle and Jim Bob Duggar got pregnant with their 18th child, they announced it on the Today Show and their reality TV show launched that fall. When Nadya Suleman, 33, gave birth to octuplets on January 26th, she got revulsion, ridicule and death threats. A talk radio host who called her a freak said his listeners were prepared to boycott any company that helped out mother or babies. Jimmy Kimmel declared that "Golden retrievers do not have that many kids."

Uh, yawp. Single, POC and oh mi ghad IRAQI. SPICY.

(You know, I'd almost expect some people to have a little empathy for people who have somewhat toxic parents....but noooooo. Guess not.) And before you hit that comment button - keep in mind. The lady had choices. Since we see more of the grandfather doing childcare publically than the grandmother, you figure it out. Watch the grandkids leave that house Real Soon. As soon as enough money shows up - and it will show up. (Just keep making those death threats on all those sponsored websites, kids!)

Quick quiz.

Who administers 'food stamp' programs?

- Department of the Treasury
- Department of Homeland Security
- The Internal Revenue Service
- Department of Agriculture (*dingdingding*)

Also, the going term is Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program - not food stamps. Note the key word - there is no intention for this ever to be the sole support for anyone. (I love the fact they've moved it off paper and to electronic ATM card. No, you can't pool the change from buying a candy bar with a coupon until you can buy liquor anymore. Too bad. *snickers*)

Oh yeah, $490 a month is a REAL GOOD incentive to have a kid. (...where do people get this crap...) And of course you top out, regardless of the number of people in the household.

Defend her? Not so much. What I find amazing is the vitriol where in just about every other case I know of, there was nothing but cooes and praise for being 'so absolutely PERFECTLY FEMALE' for being, well - successful at being female. That's it, isn't it? The pastel pinks and blues, the heft of the rewards thrown, the fairy tale twittering. The strokes - oh yes - THE STROKES.

(I'm catching echoes of it adopting right now, and I know it when I see it. It's perceived sainthood and I'm hip. I got much the same when I was the wife of a terminal patient. It's not helpful, except as a signal that they're not going to bitchslap you.)

I'm glad information is getting out. It's making our lives easier not having to keep our mouths shut. (How many times does WE CAN'TALK make sense?)

What I'm watching for? Terminations at the hospital of people who were peeking into health records when they had no reason to. Yeah, it's all electronic, all tagged with who was doing the peeking and we've had plenty of evidence there's a zero tolerance policy for fraud - though I think Kaiser might handle these a bit differently after a whole family died when both parents were fired for it. Remember - same hospital system.

Whatta parade. Can we talk about Sully instead?

Comments

[feyandstrange.livejournal.com]

AFAIK there were no doctors involved with the Quiverful family.

I think there do need to be guidelines - possibly involving doctors losing their licenses - for excessive embryo implantation. (And the McCaugheys did get threats and anger, as well.)

Plus I want to know who the hell paid for that fertility service. That stuff isn't cheap. The idea of sinking that much money into a fertility service when *you can't afford to feed the babies* horrifies me.

And? Don't we have any requirements about counseling for IVF parents? This woman is obviously suffering from some mental health issues, which she is trying to solve by having too many babies for her to take care of at once. She didn't need octuplets, she needs therapy.

Back in the forties, my grandmother lost a baby and went nuts with grief. The doctors' advice at the time was "Make her have another one, she'll get over it." That didn't end well, as the unwanted baby-my aunt-can tell you. (Til the day she died in her nineties, crazy grandma barely acknowledged my aunt, even though my aunt took care of her for half her life. But she mistook me for the dead baby girl...)

"I want to have a baby because it will love me and I'll be a mommy and someone will always love me!" is something I see too much among teen moms, too. That's not a desire to reproduce; it's a desire to be loved. That's a need for therapy and a better sense of self-esteem. And a mom with those issues is not going to be the best mom, is she?

I can hand you horror stories from the boy who was the last of eleven children in a religious family, the baby mom didn't want to have, neglected and disliked and abused. He's one on a long list I have.

People who have babies just to have a baby - not because they want to raise a child - or because God says to make more - are likely to provide poorer care to those children.

Sadly, it's harder for us to criticize the ones who claim religious reasons than the ones who don't. I would be very interested to see a case of an IVF mother who does this and claims the Quiverful logic for it despite a lack of a husband. Would they adopt her or revile her?

[kyburg.livejournal.com]

I can believe that they placed six every time, that I have no problem believing.

If she used funds from a settlement, the amount of that settlement was also counted as income and you don't get dispersements when you have too much of that.

You can also borrow the funds. If she filed for bankruptcy, then she's on the hook for it now, no way out (I was told she later recinded the order and paid her debts).

(God, I know enough about both sides of this to talk about it. That shouldn't be true. I shouldn't know this stuff.)

Oh, you always had another right away when something bad happened. Kind of like getting another puppy. *shakes head* Not much the same thing, and definitely with mixed results.

Having children is ALWAYS a selfish endeavor, up front. Why would anyone willingly throw themselves into that great beyond - there are no guarantees, nothing you can tie to - hell, you have NO idea who you're going to get! And nobody asked to be here - we all came into the world the same way. As a great unknown, and if we're lucky - on trust. As part of an agenda, far more likely. Thankfully, that doesn't last long - reality takes over real quick. Kind of like the old saying about swamps and alligators.

For the last - the Catholic church does not allow assisted reproduction any more than it allows birth control or abortion. (You're to deal with you reproductive issues with prayer, and trust that this is what's supposed to be.) You play with this, you have to accept the consequences - and after having one set of multiples, there are no secrets about it happening again...or even in higher order, which is exactly what happened.

I can't speak for the Quiverfull group - but I'd have to say they'd be aghast. Then roll up their sleeves and get to work again.

[betnoir.livejournal.com]

Having children is ALWAYS a selfish endeavor, up front.

I laugh with bitter bitter irony at this.

I cannot add that high, the number of times I've been told I'm selfish for not having children.

Really?

Yeah, because having a kid, knowing my genetic history, and then having to *look them in the eye and explain to them why I put them through the same problems I have had when I knew beforehand what might happen* is so selfless.

What WAS I thinking?

[kyburg.livejournal.com]

Uh, you were thinking. That gets us into SO much trouble. *smirks*

Tell me if this isn't close to the mark -

Really? Are you selfish because you made the choice THEY wish they had, and are unapologetic about it? Or you weren't providing THEM with what they wanted and couldn't be upfront about?

Or maybe you think you should be cared for in your old age just like you HAD kids to do the work (and that's why they had theirs).

Wow. Smoke from other fires.

People lose their little minds when kids enter the picture - it never fails to amaze and astound me the sheer vermissilitude of what this touches on...and none of it surrounding the sheer enjoyment of someone another age than you are. *shakes head*

[the-paulr.livejournal.com]

This woman is obviously suffering from some mental health issues, which she is trying to solve by having too many babies for her to take care of at once. She didn't need octuplets, she needs therapy.

I was thinking the same thing. But, if it's true that she previously had six placed but only one implanted (I'm not sure if that's the proper term) as others have said, then there may not have been a reason to suggest she seek counseling before the last treatment.

Based on the little I've seen since, however, I think that she definitely needs counseling more than anything else.

[kyburg.livejournal.com]

I'm really of the mind she's not the only one anymore. *looks around nervously*

[the-paulr.livejournal.com]

Oh, definitely.