BayCon Report - What do corsets have to do with SF?

[kyburg]

A lot, it seems.

(I've decided not to write the typical con/weekend report, but concentrate on a few topics that came up as a result of -)

Corsets. Hooooookay.

I've come to the conclusion that I'm out of the loop on this one, but thanks to my theater arts background, not completely ignorant. Which means, I can look at a girl in a corset and go "yeah, that works - and I know why" - and at the same time, go "glad she's wearing it."

Thinking back to when I was forming opinions on fashion, the hemlines had just recently dropped from their micro-mini 1974 heights to just below the knees (not all bad, remember the hankerchief hemlines and sleeves?), with the optional slit up to mid-thigh or trumpet flares that demurely exposed the knees as you fluttered by.

Bras? Are you nuts? Let 'em hang where they may - but the favored neckline was again - demurely - the sweetheart, and the pussycat collar was the norm. That's buttoned up to your throat with a huuuuuge ass bow under your chin pussycat. Victoria still had a secret and JC Penney is where you got your undies. White, beige or black (which nobody in their right mind got - you couldn't wear that color under anything lighter, and Mom wouldn't allow black. No, I'm not kidding).

So a proper foundation wasn't much more than what you had walking in the door. Underalls were the newest thing - look, no panty lines! W00t! I'm not wearing pants!

And then add the fact I come from a family of medical professionals - and I read my mother's nursing manuals and her professional journals. No, I did. Mom thought it odd too - I found it fascinating. I know a whole lot more about colostomy care than any 17 year old had a right to know in 1976, but there you go -

So I knew all about things like this:



Because the lower five ribs are not attached to the sternum (breast bone), the human torso can be shaped by various techniques to produce a waistline of desirable and alluring contours. Introduced in Europe during the fifteenth century, corsets began as tightly wrapped bandages. Over the next four centuries, corsetry evolved to include stays (boards) and strings for extra-tight lacing. Respectable and virtuous Victorian women wore corsets; an "unlaced woman" (as opposed to "straight-laced") was thought to be a vessel of sin. In a desperate attempt to achieve the ideal, some women had their lower ribs surgically removed.

"Corset diseases" such as fainting, hemorrhoids, coughing, and palpitations plagued many fashionable women. Corsets could displace internal organs and cause pulmonary disease, and occasionally led to miscarriages. They were eventually replaced in the 1930s by less constricting, but still reshaping, girdles.

I'll be honest, I'm pulling from one of the few sources I could find that didn't offer corsets for sale on the internet - what I find amusing/ironic is the opinion today that corsets are SEXAY in the extreme while the historical reason people wore these things in the first place couldn't be further from it.

Ribs removed. Pulmonary disease. Uh, that's where you've restricted blood flow through enough of your body that the pressure deforms your freaking heart and lungs, disease.

Corsets. Yeah. Sign me up.

But, properly done - wow.

And some historical costumes demand them.

But - a science fiction convention? It's been a long time since I heard "you going to Loscon?" so often. Spaceships, plans for the future and all that jazz.

Well, they look hot - done properly. But I believe I reached my breaking point when I fast discovered that not every body can wear a corset. Matter of fact, even the bones of the strongest steel have a weight limit.

Anime congoers, you know what I mean by there should be a weight limit on spandex.

Watching a large number of 450 - 500 lb. women wearing corsets verged on the jaw-dropping. I don't get it.

I'm trying to be gentle. I'm not talking about women between 150 to even 300 lbs.

These folks were in the dealer's room. Take a look under "Victorian Corset." The model is a size 24. The company is committed to making clothes to fit everyone, there's no complaint there whatsoever - but triple that model's size. (BTW, I'm making shameless use of these folks' website to provide an illustration - they're terrific people and power to them.)

The corset did nothing to change her shape. She looked like a meatball in satin-and-boned traction.

And she wasn't alone.

I don't think furries twigged me like they did. Smelly otaku, fine, narsty - but there's something about the oblivious self-injury, delusional quality of that image that has stuck like none other from this weekend.

Some of the other, older fen were doing the doubletake like I was - and you could also see lips curling. Because in a lot of cases, the woman in question had also turned her body into a graphic novel and had so many pieces of metal piecing various parts of anatomy, you wondered if they moonlighted as a radio antenna.

She's already shown that she prefers self-mutilation and has no self-respect. It's all right for her to hurt herself, she doesn't know any better. Case closed.

THAT should bug anyone. Welcome to "It's acceptable if you agree with me" BayCon.

If someone asked my opinion? "You're too heavy for that garment. You asked."

Observation of the weekend. Your mileage may vary.

Comments

[metaphorge.livejournal.com]

She's already shown that she prefers self-mutilation and has no self-respect. It's all right for her to hurt herself, she doesn't know any better. Case closed.

Sorry, but I feel that assessment of consensual body art is utter bullshit. Would you prefer everyone were one of the Stepford Wife?

[metaphorge.livejournal.com]

BTW, sorry if this came off as exceptionally hostile; I just have a major pet-peeve with Instant Psychoanalysis based upon what someone chooses to do with their appearance.

[kyburg.livejournal.com]

Yup. My point precisely. It was twigging me - but in some people, they got downright hostile.

I might think it was interesting - but I wasn't going to come to snap conclusions over it like some of the older folks (older than me, what a concept) were - and dismiss them out of hand.

I'm glad it worries someone else besides me, lemme tellya.

[bigbigtruck.livejournal.com]

I don't "get" body modification at all - yeah, some of it looks neat, but it seems like a lot of pain and hassle - but then, I'm sure there are folks who don't "get" why I don't style my hair or wear more makeup.
As long as no one tries to shove it at me, I'm fine...

...but I do wonder what goes into someone's mind when they decide to split their peener in half..

[kyburg.livejournal.com]

*cackles* I spent a lot of time in gaming - and yes, someone trotted out the (what is it now, Polish) news story of the kid whose penis ruptured. oooooooh. I kept my mouth shut - kids too underage were present. I've worked in emergency rooms - I've seen some really stupid stuff as a result of uneducated contraceptive efforts.

I've seen pictures of a labia that had been punched and riveted to allow lacing and a padlock. It's someone else's thing - me, I can't even countenance piercing my ears. It looks nice, but when I think of doing it myself, I can't imagine it.

I think a lot of tattoos are cool, but the only way I'd decorate my body that way would be with something washable.

It's the wondering that keeps the mind working, I think. Just backing away and running is never a good plan. Even the people who deal with snakebites study snakes.

[musicalchaos.livejournal.com]

To be completely honest, I've seriously thought about tattooing and scarification, but I always think about the permanence, my general lack of body definition, and what my body will do as it ages... Very strong deterrents. The pain doesn't scare me, nor the thought of doing it without it meaning something in particular to me, but I also don't want it to be a reaction to anyone or anything. I think some of the best advice I ever received on the subject of tattooing was from my sister who told me (and she does practice this herself) to wait for an average of two years after coming up with a tattoo idea (writing it down in a journal or something so it isn't forgotten in the mean time) and then going back to see if it's something you're still interested in. Hmmm... sorry to ramble like this, it's just become... not a pet peeve, but a personal interest of mine, since I see a lot of my friends going off and doing relatively permanent things without any real forethought or consideration of the possible consequences. Bah... But then again, while I may not have done it, what I'm considering (as if I'd ever have the cash) is by far and away more extreme, for being full body as well as scarification. *shrugs* But then again, to each their own. I personally wish I could alter my body at will... it's just the thought of not being able to change it back if I don't like the result or change my mind in later years that keeps me from doing anything hasty. It's part of the reason I'm so fascinated by bio-engineering, whether it is by way of genetics or mechanics... *chuckle* I'm such a freak. I just am fascinated by too much, and wish I could understand more than is possible in this day and age, probably ever. Ehn.

[neintales.livejournal.com]

Like mileage.. pain may vary ;)

I was more puzzled about it at one time.. personally I still plan to have no metal other than in my ears.. but I've gone and gotten one tattoo, and am pondering more.

I'm a wimp.. but the tat I got on my shin actually didn't hurt worse than bad sunburn. I can deal with that :)

[elorie.livejournal.com]

You would get that kind of health problem from corsets if you wore them every day, for years. Which is what people used to do. Wearing them every once in a while at a con is not going to hurt you any.

[musicalchaos.livejournal.com]

No... but it can have some short term effects that can be rather nasty including, but not limited to fainting, variations in blood pressure and body temperature... Just... I personally wouldn't advise them at all... (though I won't deny, that I must admit a bias in favor of curvy, warm, soft women. *Chuckle*)

[k-diddy.livejournal.com]

*wincing* I don't care if it's done just once. I like my lungs where they are, kthnx.

[feyandstrange.livejournal.com]

I like corset styling, although at a size 6 I wear fake corsets generally - and pad the top, because my ribs stick out farther than my tits on bad days. But serious lacing and waist training? Ugh! Too many goths I know are into that, and it's horrid. The occasional corset for special occasions, sure, but even then why lace it to monstrous proportions?

I will always remember a custom-built corset I saw at DragonCon one year; it was on a lovely redhead who was probably about a size 12 or 14, but who was cursed with breasts bigger than a large man's head. The corset probably provided better and more comfortable back and breast support than most other clothing for her ever would, but the effect was still a little startling - breasts could literally enter the room well before she did, and she could have provided shelter from rain and sun to a large midget. Still, the waist wasn't laced in to a ridiculous extent, just supportive, and if I had to stand all day running a booth in the dealer's room, I'd have worn it, too.

I remember a person from a few years ago at BayCon who, I swear, this woman must have been well over 500 pounds. Not in a corset, thankfully, but instead appeared to be wearing a couple of sheets. We found ourselves helplessly calling her the White Whale, especially after the medically horrifying sight of this woman propped in a loveseat in the hallway, asleep, snoring, and with frequent attacks of apnea. If your body is already under that much stress, lady, sleep on a damn bed! It's not like there weren't cheap hotel rooms in the vicinity! And now I'm forced to wonder (since, when she was awake, this creature was spotted in the company of others almost as large) if this was the same person.

I like women of size. I'm not one myself, but my mother is, and many of my friends are and have been. Women of figure are often more attractive to me. But there is a point at which it's just medically unsound, and when people don't do a damn thing to arrest their slow, whale-like slide into diabetes, heart failure, and a nasty sort of death that will be a burden on all those around you... it's just really horrible and off-putting. Piercings can heal up, usually; really bad tattoos could be covered or removed. There's only so many heart transplants one person should deserve.

Fandom sometimes takes the "accept all fans" to an extreme, including rejecting everything "normal", stuff like basic good health practices, hygiene, and manners. It's my least favorite aspect of fen.

[kyburg.livejournal.com]

If the poor dear is still alive, holy merde.

[ceolyn.livejournal.com]

The Victorians also took corsetry to an extreme that I didn't see anyone at con achieving. Safe waist reduction is 4 to 6 inches. The Victorians would go up to 18 inches if they could. More than a bit of a differance and little to no comparison at all. A modern corset done properly should accentuate and exaggerate a womans natural shape with no damage short or long term to the wearer at all ever.

I do agree however that there are those who should not be wearing one, it doesn't do anything flattering for them.

[kyburg.livejournal.com]

They also did it over long spans of time - much like having your feet bound to make them "smaller."

I was looking for some of the early radiographs they took of women who had been corseted since early puberty - I've seen them, and they are as frightening as the ones I saw of a woman who'd had "lily feet."

Imagine wearing a corset while pregnant - and only allowed to remove it once in labor.

Today, they're a fashion statement - as long it isn't taken to extremes.

"Done properly." Oh hells yes.

Costuming Garment Query

[elfwench.livejournal.com]

What is the difference between a corset and a bodice?

[kyburg.livejournal.com]

There are other folks around who can answer better than I, but my rule is waist length - the one bodice I own stops just shy of my last rib. A full corset likely skirts the pelvic bones.

[caitlin.livejournal.com]

It's been a long time since I heard "you going to Loscon?" so often. Spaceships, plans for the future and all that jazz.

I don't tend to go to LosCon m'self. But I know of plenty of people in the local area that do.

C.

[lorriejharris.livejournal.com]

Victoria still had a secret and JC Penney is where you got your undies. White, beige or black (which nobody in their right mind got - you couldn't wear that color under anything lighter, and Mom wouldn't allow black. No, I'm not kidding).

And here all this time, I thought it was just -my- mom who was like that! ^_^;;

[kyburg.livejournal.com]

Yanno, I think Mom knows about Victoria's Secret, but I don't know that she's ever been inside one.

Love her dearly, but I'm so grateful I had a Swiss granny - she thought white underwear looking boring on the clothesline and bought Cliff every color under the rainbow, including leopard print. Her grandson.

I still miss her.

[lorriejharris.livejournal.com]

^_^;; Cool Grandmother!

[joiseyguy.livejournal.com]

gee, I haven't been to a con since the mid-80's. I think I need a con road trip. Sounds like they haven't changed much.

[riverheart.livejournal.com]

I wear a corset on (rare) occasion, though I don't tightlace it. I have two from these folks. One is in a dark green silk with embroidered butterflies, which looks divine on a redhead, and the other is the one they custom-made for me. It's a 1920s cream-colored silk heavily embroidered in a crysanthemum pattern in 22 karat gold. I got handfasted to charlesks last August in that, my white Ren Faire chemise, and a white silk skirt.

Neither one's appropriate for tightlacing. In fact, the instructions that came with the cream silk one specifically said NOT to lace it too tightly

I have a friend who is probably somewhere around 300 pounds and she looks good in an Xcentricities corset, too, but then, S. has a waistline anyway. I don't think I've personally seen a larger woman than she in one.

It's not comfortable, and for comfort (and back support) I far prefer my Ren Faire bodice to my corsets, elegant though the latter may be.

The bodice is by Dianne Longdo of The Dye Spot, and it has no bones at all. It's canvas with really strong seams. It gives cleavage (or more cleavage, in my case) without restricting the internal organs. I can wear it all day long without discomfort, something I cannot say of a corset or waist cincher.

So why am I going to have Xcentricities make me a leather corset-dress when I can afford it? Because I *want* to, and because it's a form of clothes bondage. It won't be something I wear often, and will be more used for play than anything else.

Xcentricities was at Norwescon, too; they generally are, I think. We got a purple silk corset for tygereclipse for her birthday - it was what she really wanted - and the next time she went LARPing, her corset got a costume prize.

[kyburg.livejournal.com]

They make really pretty stuff - and I see every effort to make each one fit the person, not the other way 'round.

[starcat-jewel.livejournal.com]

Just one question, and it's honest, not sarcastic. I do understand the point you're making about the corsets not being flattering to the extremely large women. But where does one draw the line between "women that large shouldn't wear X" and "Why do you go out in public like that, you fat cow" addressed to a 150-pound woman in a tank bathing suit?

I don't weigh 500 pounds, and if I did, I probably wouldn't wear a corset. But I tend to cut those who do some slack, because their freedom to wear something they like (even if I think it's unsuitable for them) translates into my freedom to wear something I think is sexy or pretty even though I don't look like a fashion model.

[kyburg.livejournal.com]

I think it's more appropriate to keep your opinions to yourself unless you're asked for them - face-to-face.

It may make me wonder, but when it makes you angry, wait a second. I can ponder at length - but to get adversarial, something more is required.

A 500 lb woman in a corset does not elimate 22-yr old male dinks with more testosterone than brains and provide them with the rudiments of compassion. It doesn't.

Not too long ago, I heard a paraplegic got slapped by an elderly woman for "letting themself been seen in public." (Missing both legs, and all fingers since birth.) Go stupid lady. Huh?

I'm afraid any time someone has had *any* issue with me, the WTF factor has overridden any hurt feelings until long, long after. I just never understood the mechanism.

And it rarely has much to do with the subject at hand; it has far more to do with the character of the person spewing the comments.

[lolleeroberts.livejournal.com]

So in your opinion, 500 pound women look stupid in corsets and you don't understand the attraction, but you aren't going to go around telling them so. (And don't consider placing that opinion in your LJ the equivalent of saying so to their face.) Would that sum up your position? And that people who make rude comments in public are going to do so regardless of what you do because they're um, rude?

[kyburg.livejournal.com]

Precisely. (Stupid wouldn't be accurate. I may not get it - so it might be me that's stupid.)

Is it rude to be honest? Well, I'll admit I am honest to be point of cruelty sometimes. Fully aware of it, too.

But I don't go around calling random women "fat cows" either. That kind of behavior intends injury - and I don't think someone's choice has anything to do with it.

Rude, mean, malicious - subject matter has nothing to do with it. There are just some people who know they can skewer people with words - and do so, just to watch them jump.

Sickening.

[christophine.livejournal.com]

I don't own any corsets, but a couple years ago, I tried on one with those very folks at BayCon. Since it was the first time I ever tried one on, the vendor doing the lacing did not lace it tight.

I discovered the benefits of a corset that is not laced for serious reshaping on someone who is built like me.

You see, I have a very oversized chest. Believe you me, a HH size means lower back problems every moment of every day of your life. Lower back pain has been such a daily companion that I no longer even consciously notice that it's constantly there unless I stop and think about it, or it gets actively worse because I'm putting additional strain on it with what I'm doing. From day to day, the pain has become a constant background noise, not particularly noticed but nibbling annoyingly at the edges of conscious thought.

Then I tried on that corset, and for the first time since I began developing this oversized chest, I had no back pain. I didn't want to remove that corset, ever. I couldn't afford it, but I wanted it very badly.

Since then, I've been obsessed with having a corset. I know now what I did when I was a kid, what it feels like not to have lower back pain from the time I get up until sometime after I go to bed. So, while I agree with you on the hard reshaping of bodies, I do think that corsets sometimes have their place and their benefits beyond reshaping.

[kyburg.livejournal.com]

Boy, I sure thought of you driving home Monday.

Hon, whatever people wear under the clothes to make things work is none of my business - and I doubt it would ever occur to me.

Go Google "medical corset" and you'll find in you're in very good company.