![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
kyburgSo I get home last night from the fireworks event (yay ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
apostivevoice!) - and check my email.
My older brother was down for Mom's surgery last week - and spent the 10+ hours in the waiting room with us.
I guess he caught wind that we're not exactly impressed with the moral character of his sons. All of which have criminal records of one kind or another. And use him like a roll of cheap toliet paper.
So I get a note telling me he wants to return all their Christmas gifts.
*sighs*
I wouldn't be concerned about the magazine subscription - I was told it would take up to 12 weeks for you to see your first issue, and it's only published quarterly. You're still within that time frame. If, say, by March, you've seen nothing, then I need to go browbeat someone.
You're very angry about a number of things, but I have no intention of retalliating in kind - that's not my way. I've found it is more productive to allow people to express their hurt as they see fit, and acknowledge that they are hurt as I have wished no one harm - and I wish to resolve issues when they exist. (I can't do that alone, of course.)
Angry people who wish to hurt others rarely are interested in hearing explanations or receiving more information as they have made their decisions, but here it is for the record.
I believe you may have made some emotional decisions in haste. I apologize in advance for however you may have been offended. Jim may have some answering up and apologies to make of his own as well, but you need to take that up with him.
I'm afraid I've had to treat a number of commencement announcements this year in the manner you've found Chris' - Jim's had family members as well who have completed courses of study, and we've been able to nod and say "that's nice" - but not much more.
We haven't attended a single commencement exercise since your own at USC - nor made any effort towards any commencement announcement received this year. That may be more information than you need, but that's the simple truth.
I forget birthdays, I rarely get thank-you cards in the mail on time and I suck at various other ettiquette-related tasks. Don't take it personally - I do it to everyone, equally.
I'm trying to recall a time where I spoke to any of your sons without me making the call myself, Dave - it's not been inside the years I've known Jim, that I'm pretty certain. I am certain they barely know me - and have little or no interest in me at all. Surely no curiousity or personal motivation - to be certain, there has been no malice there on their part. But no interest, either. They neither hate me, like me or love me. I've spoken to Doug once this year; I'm trying to recall if I talked to Steven once before he moved back up state...and right now, it's fuzzy. I think I've spoken to Chris once while he's been in school - it's not been since last holiday season. I remember it was cold and raining. Not much more.
I don't have much to offer them, frankly. This is not something to be angry about - I'm not what every person in the world needs. No insult has been offered to me directly. Nothing really has been offered to me at all.
I only have what they have done to you to use as a guide as to what kinds of interaction I might expect to have with these grown men. While how your children interact with you is your own affair, when I have to judge whether I wish to be subjected to the same - or lesser - behavior (keep in mind, I'm not the Mom or Dad, I'm a near-stranger, even if related by blood), it is my responsibility to weigh everything without allowing emotions to color the decision.
It is my best observation that the relationship I have with your children is the most normal, natural one possible - even if attenuated to the nth degree. If they wish to return what I have offered, they may do so. It is what I've done in past years; in the absence of any new information, I've done what I told you I was planning back when you sent that last email around regarding Christmas presents in general. It is their right and priviledge to do as they feel best. (If that is really what they want to do, I strongly suggest they donate their gifts to a local charity - see if there is a school participating in the http://www.shoesthatfit.org program and save yourselves the expense. It's not necessary - really.) I respect their right to make decisions on how they wish to be treated - I reserve the right to do the same. Offense is offered; none is taken. It takes two people to war, and I won't do it. I sincerely doubt you really knew the source of the statements you took offense to, and there is plenty of ignorance to go around.
What would make me more comfortable? I would like to see your sons demonstrate the same level of respect, care and concern towards you as you have poured into them since day one, independent of any public opinion or benefit they would gain. That's me.
My husband has heard me use stronger language. My brother has worked upwards of three jobs, gone to school evenings, weekends and travelled extensively to complete courses of study that ultimately benefitted them as well as himself. He has done everything in his power to help them, carry them along, pull them up and motivate them to be the very best they could be.
What have they done to take the burden off you? What have they done for themselves? How do they show their appreciation of what my brother does for them? The person who has loved them, cherished them and supported them - no matter what they did, no matter what legal difficulties they put themselves into. My brother took care of whatever needed to be done. Every single time.
I've used stronger language, David. These are your grown children. Nothing related to a single incident, nothing towards a specific person. You're a good parent, Dave - simply put. And I love you - and like you - more than them. And frankly put, I'm more impressed with your stance towards them, than their stances towards you.
And I believe Jim is unaware of how my opinions on your sons differ from the ones the parent of these children holds. So and So made a good point, though - and I think I've supported it as noted above. (We have no nominees for "role model", BTW. We don't know of any, and we're certainly not volunteering ourselves. As if.)
As adults, your sons get weighed as individuals apart from yourself. What I do for one, I do for all - equally, as I am allowed. It would unthinkable for me to confront them on how I feel about their treatment of you; it's immaterial to their daily lives, and intrusive to boot. As the old saw goes, "we don't talk." It would have been best to query me first, if you had issue about it, don't you think? It's very simple - I am your sibling, they are your children. They don't interact with me on any level; you do.
My stance on issues related to my spouse stands. If you have an issues with Jim, I strongly urge you to address him directly on them. There is no "chain of command" to follow. You're both reasonable adults. Confront him if you have concerns. (I treated Cliff no differently - he had issues with Mom, early on. She had issues with him. I stepped out of the middle and let them settle their differences as I was not the source of them. But I did insist they do so, as I had to live with both of them in my life. And no, I didn't mediate and decide who was "right." They were both wrong - and right - and needed to accept each other's POV and differences and come to terms on how they were going to treat each other. Reasonable people come to reasonable conclusions - and in the end, they were both better for it. And I had peace, not war between them. It took time and effort on both their parts, but I had it. It was one of the ways they both told me they loved me.)
I should warn you, however. If you're not willing to put some effort into this process, you can't be surprised at the results. Jim will have as much information and backstory as I can provide him. You will have to do the rest.
Again, let me summarize. I appreciate your position of defending your sons - and you may take whatever tack you feel appropriate without any offense on my part. But since no harm was meant towards you, your actions are perceived as being taken from an emotional position, not a rational one. I do not believe you have good information on my (or my spouse's) opinion of your sons, whether you need that for your decision-making process or not. It is not based on any one thing, or group of things, that your sons have done or not done. It is based on the complete lack of interaction on their part towards me, and my observation of their interactions towards you.
I hope this will be helpful to you. I must be true to myself first, and be as painfully honest as I can.
And I am very sorry your feelings were hurt. There may not be anything I can do about it, but I can be sorry about it, nonetheless.
And no, I have no intention of severing any kind of contact with you over this. You have brought your concerns to me, in anger with intent to insult and hurt my feelings, but none is taken as I can consider the source of your hurts and from your current POV, they are valid. The future is brighter if we work together to resolve our differences - which is what I suggest we do.
Family. You can't spank 'em, and you can't tie 'em to a tree.
apostivevoice!) - and check my email.My older brother was down for Mom's surgery last week - and spent the 10+ hours in the waiting room with us.
I guess he caught wind that we're not exactly impressed with the moral character of his sons. All of which have criminal records of one kind or another. And use him like a roll of cheap toliet paper.
So I get a note telling me he wants to return all their Christmas gifts.
*sighs*
I wouldn't be concerned about the magazine subscription - I was told it would take up to 12 weeks for you to see your first issue, and it's only published quarterly. You're still within that time frame. If, say, by March, you've seen nothing, then I need to go browbeat someone.
You're very angry about a number of things, but I have no intention of retalliating in kind - that's not my way. I've found it is more productive to allow people to express their hurt as they see fit, and acknowledge that they are hurt as I have wished no one harm - and I wish to resolve issues when they exist. (I can't do that alone, of course.)
Angry people who wish to hurt others rarely are interested in hearing explanations or receiving more information as they have made their decisions, but here it is for the record.
I believe you may have made some emotional decisions in haste. I apologize in advance for however you may have been offended. Jim may have some answering up and apologies to make of his own as well, but you need to take that up with him.
I'm afraid I've had to treat a number of commencement announcements this year in the manner you've found Chris' - Jim's had family members as well who have completed courses of study, and we've been able to nod and say "that's nice" - but not much more.
We haven't attended a single commencement exercise since your own at USC - nor made any effort towards any commencement announcement received this year. That may be more information than you need, but that's the simple truth.
I forget birthdays, I rarely get thank-you cards in the mail on time and I suck at various other ettiquette-related tasks. Don't take it personally - I do it to everyone, equally.
I'm trying to recall a time where I spoke to any of your sons without me making the call myself, Dave - it's not been inside the years I've known Jim, that I'm pretty certain. I am certain they barely know me - and have little or no interest in me at all. Surely no curiousity or personal motivation - to be certain, there has been no malice there on their part. But no interest, either. They neither hate me, like me or love me. I've spoken to Doug once this year; I'm trying to recall if I talked to Steven once before he moved back up state...and right now, it's fuzzy. I think I've spoken to Chris once while he's been in school - it's not been since last holiday season. I remember it was cold and raining. Not much more.
I don't have much to offer them, frankly. This is not something to be angry about - I'm not what every person in the world needs. No insult has been offered to me directly. Nothing really has been offered to me at all.
I only have what they have done to you to use as a guide as to what kinds of interaction I might expect to have with these grown men. While how your children interact with you is your own affair, when I have to judge whether I wish to be subjected to the same - or lesser - behavior (keep in mind, I'm not the Mom or Dad, I'm a near-stranger, even if related by blood), it is my responsibility to weigh everything without allowing emotions to color the decision.
It is my best observation that the relationship I have with your children is the most normal, natural one possible - even if attenuated to the nth degree. If they wish to return what I have offered, they may do so. It is what I've done in past years; in the absence of any new information, I've done what I told you I was planning back when you sent that last email around regarding Christmas presents in general. It is their right and priviledge to do as they feel best. (If that is really what they want to do, I strongly suggest they donate their gifts to a local charity - see if there is a school participating in the http://www.shoesthatfit.org program and save yourselves the expense. It's not necessary - really.) I respect their right to make decisions on how they wish to be treated - I reserve the right to do the same. Offense is offered; none is taken. It takes two people to war, and I won't do it. I sincerely doubt you really knew the source of the statements you took offense to, and there is plenty of ignorance to go around.
What would make me more comfortable? I would like to see your sons demonstrate the same level of respect, care and concern towards you as you have poured into them since day one, independent of any public opinion or benefit they would gain. That's me.
My husband has heard me use stronger language. My brother has worked upwards of three jobs, gone to school evenings, weekends and travelled extensively to complete courses of study that ultimately benefitted them as well as himself. He has done everything in his power to help them, carry them along, pull them up and motivate them to be the very best they could be.
What have they done to take the burden off you? What have they done for themselves? How do they show their appreciation of what my brother does for them? The person who has loved them, cherished them and supported them - no matter what they did, no matter what legal difficulties they put themselves into. My brother took care of whatever needed to be done. Every single time.
I've used stronger language, David. These are your grown children. Nothing related to a single incident, nothing towards a specific person. You're a good parent, Dave - simply put. And I love you - and like you - more than them. And frankly put, I'm more impressed with your stance towards them, than their stances towards you.
And I believe Jim is unaware of how my opinions on your sons differ from the ones the parent of these children holds. So and So made a good point, though - and I think I've supported it as noted above. (We have no nominees for "role model", BTW. We don't know of any, and we're certainly not volunteering ourselves. As if.)
As adults, your sons get weighed as individuals apart from yourself. What I do for one, I do for all - equally, as I am allowed. It would unthinkable for me to confront them on how I feel about their treatment of you; it's immaterial to their daily lives, and intrusive to boot. As the old saw goes, "we don't talk." It would have been best to query me first, if you had issue about it, don't you think? It's very simple - I am your sibling, they are your children. They don't interact with me on any level; you do.
My stance on issues related to my spouse stands. If you have an issues with Jim, I strongly urge you to address him directly on them. There is no "chain of command" to follow. You're both reasonable adults. Confront him if you have concerns. (I treated Cliff no differently - he had issues with Mom, early on. She had issues with him. I stepped out of the middle and let them settle their differences as I was not the source of them. But I did insist they do so, as I had to live with both of them in my life. And no, I didn't mediate and decide who was "right." They were both wrong - and right - and needed to accept each other's POV and differences and come to terms on how they were going to treat each other. Reasonable people come to reasonable conclusions - and in the end, they were both better for it. And I had peace, not war between them. It took time and effort on both their parts, but I had it. It was one of the ways they both told me they loved me.)
I should warn you, however. If you're not willing to put some effort into this process, you can't be surprised at the results. Jim will have as much information and backstory as I can provide him. You will have to do the rest.
Again, let me summarize. I appreciate your position of defending your sons - and you may take whatever tack you feel appropriate without any offense on my part. But since no harm was meant towards you, your actions are perceived as being taken from an emotional position, not a rational one. I do not believe you have good information on my (or my spouse's) opinion of your sons, whether you need that for your decision-making process or not. It is not based on any one thing, or group of things, that your sons have done or not done. It is based on the complete lack of interaction on their part towards me, and my observation of their interactions towards you.
I hope this will be helpful to you. I must be true to myself first, and be as painfully honest as I can.
And I am very sorry your feelings were hurt. There may not be anything I can do about it, but I can be sorry about it, nonetheless.
And no, I have no intention of severing any kind of contact with you over this. You have brought your concerns to me, in anger with intent to insult and hurt my feelings, but none is taken as I can consider the source of your hurts and from your current POV, they are valid. The future is brighter if we work together to resolve our differences - which is what I suggest we do.
Family. You can't spank 'em, and you can't tie 'em to a tree.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2004-12-13 08:15 am (UTC)My father's side of the family is famous for creating drama where none exists too.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-13 08:22 am (UTC)I find that screws hold better.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-13 08:54 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-07-12 11:20 pm (UTC)Try nails.
He is just as crucified, and apparently that's what he wants from what little I can gather.
IMO.
(and I have issues with my own damn family too)
no subject
Date: 2010-07-12 11:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-07-13 12:03 am (UTC)I'm also weird.
(But I think both you and
no subject
Date: 2010-07-13 12:11 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-12-13 08:34 am (UTC)Wonderful letter, BTW.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-13 09:03 am (UTC)I do this too, but my family takes it personally every time. They've even resorted to putting sarcastic comments in the cards they send me :-)
no subject
Date: 2004-12-13 11:03 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-12-13 11:09 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-12-13 02:59 pm (UTC)*sighs* What a maroon.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-13 03:33 pm (UTC)If he keeps on that an approach not unlike the one suggested below ("Please do not create more drama when we're already worried about mom. We can and will discuss this some other time, if you so wish, but right now it's unfair to our mom to spend time on it") might not be a bad idea.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-13 07:05 pm (UTC)Oh, I'm used to being the "displacement" dummy - but this is not new behavior, it's really rather dissapointing in a way. He's dragging up stuff that's ten years old...WTF?
Oh yeah. Stress. I'll give him some room for that.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-13 09:38 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-12-13 02:27 pm (UTC)Sorry they're not being supportive.
And who needs a tree? Duct tape solves so many problems.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-13 02:57 pm (UTC)And another thing? I took that coat you sent me with on surgery day - it was bitter cold, but it doubled as a security blanket so nicely....
Comfort and joy!
no subject
Date: 2004-12-13 03:37 pm (UTC)Plus I think you can get a roll of duct tape in the pockets. ;)
no subject
Date: 2004-12-13 03:30 pm (UTC)If he can't see the love, respect, caring and concern in those words, then he has no ears, or eyes, or heart.
no subject
Date: 2010-07-12 11:23 pm (UTC)She RETURNED my Christmas present that year and I got NOTHING from her.
And she didn't say anything to me either.
Every time she gets mad at me, she leaves it UP TO ME to figure out why SHE is mad AT ME.
And I wonder why I (as of 2010) am in Iowa and she's in California. (where I was at the time this post was written)
C.