More on the "comic books are not for you" story - if you're female. Shoot, if you have a pulse....

[kyburg]

When I was a teenager I worked at my local comics shop. The staff consisted of the kindly and cantankerous older middle-aged comics fan and a cast of lovable zanies. I had a great time. Until my boss asked me if I could stay late at work one day to help him bag some comics. And so I stayed late and started bagging the comics. And my boss took the opportunity to tell me that he found me sexually arousing. And he asked me to have sex with him. And I started to silently cry--pretty babyish of me, huh? Should I have punched him in the nuts? I didn't--I cried silently. I was 16, he was in his late 50s. The man expressed complete bewilderment that I responded in this matter. He said that he assumed that when I consented to stay late with him there to bag the comics I was "inviting" him in some manner. Gee is "bagging comics" some sexual euphemism that I am unaware of? I totally trusted this guy; he was like an uncle. So I was devastated, and I'm sitting there crying into this copy of Ghost Rider or Darkhawk or whatever--totally de-minting it, I might add. And the guy gives me some promotional buttons for this comic or that as a "gift".

No, you're never there because you like the books. Or, maybe - you are. But if you're there, you're never there because you want to work in the industry in the same place the males work. Standing on your own two feet, drawing and writing. Just like they do.

What she has to say about Wonder Woman is priceless.

And I quit comics a long time ago, I just never advertised it. Yeah, I read all the manga I can get my hands on - and I love Alex Ross' stuff - but you can't drag me into a "classic" comics store anymore. It just isn't my bag.

Comments

[machineplay.livejournal.com]

I still love the idea of comics, just not the industry. What I want to know is where can someone go to put forth a good egalitarian/progressive comic idea? I'd sell my eyeteeth and a kidney to get a chance to work on something new that didn't depend on bullshit old school t-a and ultraviolence to sell.

[rpeate.livejournal.com]

I collected comics from 1982 to 1988, then lost interest. They went downhill in the 'Eighties.

But it seems to me rather foolish both to single out comic books when the larger society is the problem and to expect comic books to be better than the larger society. I mean, what is she saying? "Society is evil, but I am shocked to see comics reflecting that--I expect comic books to be the Beacons of the New Enlightenment"? Please.

Comics are fantasies. Our fantasies reflect who we are. Who we are is the problem. If our society is sexist and racist, which it is, all our media will reflect that. Why single out comics? That's letting all the rest off the hook.

I say start at the top. So far we've had only male Anglo-Saxon presidents. Why? Because our society is sexist and racist. How can we work to change society for the better? That is the question. We must talk about our problems, but we must also talk about our solutions.

[machineplay.livejournal.com]

I'll argue this point strenuously. I think it's utterly fair to single out a facet of the entertainment industry that has the capacity for and a history of making political statements and covering them up as art and fun for its total failure to be responsible in any way for its product. Personally, I expect /everyone/ to be responsible for the "New Enlightenment".

I especially expect comics, which are transgressive of moral and social boundaries in so many ways, to stop wallowing in ignorance. IT DOES NOT SELL MORE COMICS. No, really, it doesn't. People buy them with shite art and terrible storylines and butchered continuity and all kinds of failures. I don't even have an issue with the art as much as I have an issue with the content. I love fantasy art. I don't love what it's saying.

Start at the top? Start everywhere. Start at the /bottom/ with children's toys and comic books and television and what's printed on the back of cereal boxes. I don't want to let ANYONE off the hook, ESPECIALLY the people who have access to the next generation's thoughts and beliefs.

[rpeate.livejournal.com]

"Start at the top? Start everywhere."

That's good. Perhaps even "start with oneself" is best of all. :)

[machineplay.livejournal.com]

Absolutely. As a writer who'd love to be writing comic books, among other things, I'm constantly (over)analyzing what messages I'm transmitting through my fiction and poetry. I've recently resigned myself to the idea that I'll work outside my writing on separating myself from a patriarchal paradigm with all its included fetishizations and the resulting change in thought and perspective should communicate itself through my work without it becoming pedantic.

[neintales.livejournal.com]

Man.. more and more I think I truly lucked out when it comes to my comic book stores.

I don't remember much about the one I went to in the 80's, but the guys running it must either have been OK or I was just obviously too young and tomboy and went under their radar.

Then came the 'comic store' in college that turned out to be mostly gaming books- and it was run by a husband and wife team who became wonderful friends.. got more into anime thanks to them and the customers there, which helped me realize further what absolute crap my old Marvel titles were going to.

And then.. Grand Rapids, Michigan, and the anime, manga & indi comic shop, Magnum Opus... where I worked happily on Sundays for about three years. A few customers at first had that "duurrrr... BOOBS!" thing but they eventually either straightened out or stopped coming when I was around. I had tacit permission to kick out ANY customer who caused me problems, including sexual harrassment- and I never had to kick any of them out for that. (Now there were a couple of guys who came in and harrassed a customer, but they weren't even customers, just 'thugz' who followed her in from the street with their pants almost around their knees. Ugh."

I did learn to absolutely HATE the hentai industry and despise a lot of the market while there, but never was I hurt by anyone- especially not the owner. He was an amazingly cool guy... he never assumed anything about me other than I was human, liked the stuff in the store, and was good with the customers.

I really dream of writing a few graphic novels, this year I really intend to start cracking on the basic storylines..

Posts like this make me cringe and almost reconsider, but fortunately, I wasn't even going to TRY any of the big US comic companies just because my plans are distinctly manga in style.

It does however warn me well and make me know that if I manage to pull off a publication, the 'traditional' comic cons can kiss my butt. Having avoided all this crap in my formulative years, I am NOT going to put up with it now.

[kyburg.livejournal.com]

*nods* I remember working for Stephen Cannell Productions back in the 80's - and loved Stephen Cannell (still do), if for no other reason than -

The one time he heard a writer chew out his secretary and called her a "dumb bitch" - he dragged him into his office and chewed him out in tones loud enough to be heard six floors down - that there was never a time, a place or a reason to use langage like that toward anyone, and that it would never be tolerated again in his hearing.

So help me. Guys, here's a hint - I LIKE THIS KIND OF STUFF.

It's what we tolerate that matters - it's what we want to see in others that matters. You let it slide, you give permission by your silence.

It doesn't mean you have to cut people off at the knees - you just have to say no.

[kyburg.livejournal.com]

I keep remembering Elfquest - every time someone says this. Indie from the get-go, and every time they stepped away from it, they got burned and ended taking the reins back. (Last time I checked in with them, I see they're handing the reins off again - I hope this time it sticks. It's a huge property now.)

[inagawayuu.livejournal.com]

For me when I think comics, I think ElfQuest. It was the first comic I ever read. I was five years old, and in the beginning I read them with my brother and mom. It's what I grew up reading. I did move on and read other comics, but I always went back to ElfQuest. On my honeymoon we went to San Diego Comic-Con, and I finally got to meet Wendy Pini who has always been one of the women I've admired most. I remeber cying and her hugging me. We talked for hours at her booth. I cant begin to describe how much it meant to me. I wish I could meet her again. I grew up wanting to write and draw comics because of EQ.

[machineplay.livejournal.com]

I had no idea. See, my comics history is spotty. Not allowed to read them as a kid, and then I read about 2000+ starting with the Watchmen (then X-Men, then Alphaflight) when I had a nervous breakdown in 1995 and didn't get out of bed for weeks. My interest was rekindled when a friend sent me scans of over 400 X-Men comics, which I read with great interest last year. Now, I'm hooked. Not only on the comics but on the meta issues around them.

[kyburg.livejournal.com]

I've been trying to hook up with Wendy for years; Richard, I met at a ComicCon in 1996 -

Really, it's a shame that working relationship is such a rarity - it produces really good work!

[bigbigtruck.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I'd say comics and comcis fandom are MUCH WORSE than most other media when it comes to sexism. Why should we let them off the hook?
Misogyny is inexcusable no matter where it occurs.

[kyburg.livejournal.com]

And somehow, justifying bad behavior as just "a fantasy" doesn't make me feel any better about it.

Mass media is just that; out there en masse. When there is no balance or respite - you get the point.

I'm also reminded of the wails of protest that the mainstream comic industry was dying due to non-interest - well, gee whiz. Wonder why.

[kyburg.livejournal.com]

I might also add -

He didn't fire him.
He didn't censor him.
And he didn't do anything harsher to him than point out what he found unacceptable. He didn't reduce him to labels as the writer had his secretary. I can go on about the guy (he was a character in and of himself), but it was as fair as it comes. He stuck to the subject and stayed on it.
And never lost his temper.

With models like this one, it's been a pretty tough act to follow.

You don't have to destroy someone to make your point - or make it clear what your boundaries for acceptable behavior are. Even when they've done something you find completely appalling.

[moropus.livejournal.com]

It seems to me that comics are nothing more than thinly veiled erotica for teenage boys who aren't old enough to buy the real stuff and those that act like them. I came to this conclusion when I was in high school, had mono, and my brother let me read all his comics because I didn't go to school forever. He had several boxes of them, and I was bored enough to read them.

I have to admit I love Batman, but only when there's no Robin. Robin is dumb. So there.

I feel like there must be other industries dominated by males and full of creeps and freaks. I wonder what it would be like for a lady to work in construction? Or be an auto mechanic? The military was OK because once they had proof, they went all ballistic on the offender.

[isolt.livejournal.com]

I'm not very into comics -- most of what I've read, I've read because my partner (who *is* very into them) pushed them at me. (That said, he has good taste, and only coaxes me into reading good stuff.)

For a long time -- a decade or more -- there was a comic store in my town that made a point of being friendly to women. My partner worked there, and actually had a book about how to make sure the store was friendly to women. Another female friend of mine also worked there for years and years, and had a really good experience there.

When I think of comic stores, this is the place I think of, although it's gone now. I count myself lucky that it's been my primary experience with comics. But I'm also sad, because I shouldn't have to count myself lucky.

[the-dar-side.livejournal.com]

I know that you live in the same area s I do, so have you ever been to Comic Cult in Carson? I usually tend to hate being in comic book shops because everyone seems to alienated and bizarre, but the proprietors of this particular shop just gives me a good feeling, especially since the owners are a kind elderly couple.

[exedore.livejournal.com]

Ironically, DC's Bat-line is about all I'm reading for US comics nowadays, and I don't bother if one of the side characters isn't in the main book...reading Batman, Gotham Knights, Nightwing, Teen Titans, and Robin (Tim Drake is great).

The last time a major female death occured in Batman, it was incredibly brutal - and portrayed graphically. I don't think it was meant to be a turn-on, and it was just plain ugly on the page. Haven't read WW in ages, but Titans is far more egalitarian on TV than in print.

On that note, ya think maybe this is the reason why readers (especially women and minorities) are flocking to manga? They like the format but it took the import boom for appealing content to appear on store shelves.