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kyburgBut, you're back!
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zoethe - Why - and how - you become the first one to lend a hand.
Viaarliss - First Richard, a Franciscan priest, answered that this is indeed a painful issue but that it is not the only "pro-life" issue that progressives — even Catholics — should concern themselves with during elections. There are also the matters of capital punishment and the war in Iraq, and of HIV. Then Jim, an evangelical, spoke about the need to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies, and the need to diffuse abortion as a political issue, by welcoming pro-choice and pro-life supporters to the discussion, with equal respect for their positions. He spoke gently about how "morally ambiguous" the issue is.
I sat there simmering, like a samovar; nice Jesusy me. The moderator turned to me and asked quietly if I would like to respond. I did: I wanted to respond by pushing over our table.
Instead, I shook my head. I love and respect the Franciscan and the evangelical, and agree with them 90-plus percent of the time. So I did not say anything, at first.
Then, when I was asked to answer the next question, I paused, and returned to the topic of abortion. There was a loud buzzing in my head, the voice of reason that says, "You have the right to remain silent," but the voice of my conscience was insistent.
Read that. I'd copy it someplace if you want to keep it - the LA Times is like that. They'll lock it down, put it to archives and charge you to look at in in a couple of weeks. This echoes my feelings very neatly - "I wanted to express calmly, eloquently, that pro-choice people understand that there are two lives involved in an abortion — one born (the pregnant woman) and one not (the fetus) — but that the born person must be allowed to decide what is right."
Because the "born" person? Is the one responsible. Will be held accountable. And also the only one pregnant. *bows out*
I'm all for letting the person who has to pay for all this make the decisions, yanno?
(And guys? No offense? But if the statement contains "should" or "can?" Where the rubber meets the road, there's only one gender that gets pregnant. And that gender gets left holding the bag - if the other one doesn't want to deal with it. Trust me on this. It has a lot to do with the reason the two genders aren't the same, and it has nothing to do with brain size.)
In other news? These guys can stay.
They call themselves the Patriot Guard Riders, and they are more than 5,000 strong, forming to counter anti-gay protests held by the Rev. Fred Phelps at military funerals.
Phelps believes American deaths in Iraq are divine punishment for a country that he says harbors homosexuals. His protesters carry signs thanking God for so-called IEDs -- explosives that are a major killer of soldiers in Iraq.
The bikers shield the families of dead soldiers from the protesters, and overshadow the jeers with patriotic chants and a sea of red, white and blue flags.
"The most important thing we can do is let families know that the nation cares," said Don Woodrick, the group's Kentucky captain. "When a total stranger gets on a motorcycle in the middle of winter and drives 300 miles to hold a flag, that makes a powerful statement."
At least 14 states are considering laws aimed at the funeral protesters, who at a recent memorial service at Fort Campbell wrapped themselves in upside-down American flags. They danced and sang impromptu songs peppered with vulgarities that condemned homosexuals and soldiers.
About time, say I. I really resent that it takes ten people to drown out the yapping of one negatively polarized voice...but if that's what it takes....ionotter gets the nod for that one.
In truth, us "libber" types really only want one thing - to be left alone. And we want to leave everyone else alone. I think, at least for me, that my rights end where the guy's standing next to me begins. And I'm acutely aware of it. I can't tell people what to do.
And I resent like heck that someone else makes that their life's work. Not the good stuff mind - encouraging people to reach potentials can only be a good thing. Tearing people down who only differ from you?
..
zoethe - Why - and how - you become the first one to lend a hand.Via
arliss - First Richard, a Franciscan priest, answered that this is indeed a painful issue but that it is not the only "pro-life" issue that progressives — even Catholics — should concern themselves with during elections. There are also the matters of capital punishment and the war in Iraq, and of HIV. Then Jim, an evangelical, spoke about the need to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies, and the need to diffuse abortion as a political issue, by welcoming pro-choice and pro-life supporters to the discussion, with equal respect for their positions. He spoke gently about how "morally ambiguous" the issue is.I sat there simmering, like a samovar; nice Jesusy me. The moderator turned to me and asked quietly if I would like to respond. I did: I wanted to respond by pushing over our table.
Instead, I shook my head. I love and respect the Franciscan and the evangelical, and agree with them 90-plus percent of the time. So I did not say anything, at first.
Then, when I was asked to answer the next question, I paused, and returned to the topic of abortion. There was a loud buzzing in my head, the voice of reason that says, "You have the right to remain silent," but the voice of my conscience was insistent.
Read that. I'd copy it someplace if you want to keep it - the LA Times is like that. They'll lock it down, put it to archives and charge you to look at in in a couple of weeks. This echoes my feelings very neatly - "I wanted to express calmly, eloquently, that pro-choice people understand that there are two lives involved in an abortion — one born (the pregnant woman) and one not (the fetus) — but that the born person must be allowed to decide what is right."
Because the "born" person? Is the one responsible. Will be held accountable. And also the only one pregnant. *bows out*
I'm all for letting the person who has to pay for all this make the decisions, yanno?
(And guys? No offense? But if the statement contains "should" or "can?" Where the rubber meets the road, there's only one gender that gets pregnant. And that gender gets left holding the bag - if the other one doesn't want to deal with it. Trust me on this. It has a lot to do with the reason the two genders aren't the same, and it has nothing to do with brain size.)
In other news? These guys can stay.
They call themselves the Patriot Guard Riders, and they are more than 5,000 strong, forming to counter anti-gay protests held by the Rev. Fred Phelps at military funerals.
Phelps believes American deaths in Iraq are divine punishment for a country that he says harbors homosexuals. His protesters carry signs thanking God for so-called IEDs -- explosives that are a major killer of soldiers in Iraq.
The bikers shield the families of dead soldiers from the protesters, and overshadow the jeers with patriotic chants and a sea of red, white and blue flags.
"The most important thing we can do is let families know that the nation cares," said Don Woodrick, the group's Kentucky captain. "When a total stranger gets on a motorcycle in the middle of winter and drives 300 miles to hold a flag, that makes a powerful statement."
At least 14 states are considering laws aimed at the funeral protesters, who at a recent memorial service at Fort Campbell wrapped themselves in upside-down American flags. They danced and sang impromptu songs peppered with vulgarities that condemned homosexuals and soldiers.
About time, say I. I really resent that it takes ten people to drown out the yapping of one negatively polarized voice...but if that's what it takes....
ionotter gets the nod for that one.In truth, us "libber" types really only want one thing - to be left alone. And we want to leave everyone else alone. I think, at least for me, that my rights end where the guy's standing next to me begins. And I'm acutely aware of it. I can't tell people what to do.
And I resent like heck that someone else makes that their life's work. Not the good stuff mind - encouraging people to reach potentials can only be a good thing. Tearing people down who only differ from you?
..
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no subject
Date: 2006-02-21 08:20 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-21 10:54 pm (UTC)And thank goodness for the woman who was able to stand up and say what she did. Until a man gives birth, they really don't have the experience to be commenting on female reproductive rights. If they are so concerned about women having to have abortions, they need to okay that male contraceptive pill that has been lying about for years or put a condom on it.
no subject
Date: 2006-02-21 11:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-22 01:27 am (UTC)First, I want to point out that I'm "pro-choice". I also happen to be a man. I take issue with the implication that I am somehow so flawed in my thinking processes that I can't reason logically and impartially about an issue simply because it doesn't happen to revolve entirely around me, nevermind that I might actually be able to comprehend, even understand, what it actually means to women and their lives, nevermind that I might have sisters, or daughters, or maybe the love of my life who can, and either already have or someday likely will, be the ones to carry pregnancies, and maybe even face these hard choices. Nevermind that I might, for all anyone knows, have actually agonized with a loved one about whether or not to abort what could conceivably become my own son or daughter, that I might have been there with her through an abortion, or alternately through a labor and birth. Nevermind that I might, potentially, have worked three jobs and endured hardships to support an unplanned family I wasn't prepared for. The implication that somebody should decide with a check mark in a box, with no thought at all, that I'm automatically an invalid participant in such discussions simply because I don't happen to have a uterus is extremely insulting. It's sexist, it's self-centered, and it's stupid.
Sigh.. Sorry. That came out harsher than I intended it. I'll probably get flamed into orbit over this, but I still feel it needs to be said somehow, somewhere, that just because women are the ones to carry the pregnancies, and often carry a greater burden in the process, doesn't mean that's all there is to the issue, and it doesn't mean that all men are fundamentally incapable of understanding anything, or shouldn't have some voice in an issue that really affects everyone, not only women, in a large number of ways.
So I've gone ahead and said it, even though I suspect I may be surrounded by Catholics, and out of chocolate...
(on a side note, I did really like the stone soup post, thanks for pointing that one out)
no subject
Date: 2006-02-22 03:36 am (UTC)Yeccch!
no subject
Date: 2006-02-22 01:40 pm (UTC)