Avoiding the "me too - I saw it too" post -

[kyburg]

So just follow this link, read, be as disgusted as I am, and come back ready to discuss the following:

If the "liberal-minded CW" labeled soliders as "baby killers" during Vietnam, what the eff are they going to call them NOW?

The worst part is I'm not surprised at this. Not at all.

And I don't have to ask why we're hated. I know.

And without any photographic evidence, this would never have been known to anyone but the people in the pictures themselves.

There are really great people being killed over there right now - others just tossed into the great sausage machine and left to fend for themselves.

..

And nobody wants to hear a thing about it. *kicks*

Comments

[miwasatoshi.livejournal.com]

And I don't have to ask why we're hated. I know.

Right now, our country is doing things we only think other countries do. As always.

[dwinghy.livejournal.com]

You know, whenever I see shit like this, what always gets me the most is that some of the people doing the torturing WILLINGLY let themselves get photographed committing these crimes as though they were taking pictures of the office Christmas party. Even ignoring the cruelty, these people are really stupid.

[muimi07.livejournal.com]

Oh my god, I think I'm going to be physically ill. Those pictures are horrendous.

AND THE SMILE ON THAT WOMAN'S FACE?! What in the... my gosh, what... I ...

Yeah, we're there to liberate. Sure we are. My goodness... someone have mercy on those souls and someone please get those f'cktards that did this out of there and court martial them to the nth degree.

[lokabrenna.livejournal.com]

Stuff like this is why I have very little faith in humanity anymore.

[bigbigtruck.livejournal.com]

I wish I could say I was surprised.

[neintales.livejournal.com]

I was a bit surprised by how open they seemed to be in photographing the shit... I guess I shouldn't have been about that either...

[rozard.livejournal.com]

They probably took them so they could share them with other companies.

[neintales.livejournal.com]

Yep. Almost lost my lunch.

THings are going to get so much worse before they get better.

...

[turandot.livejournal.com]

That's beyond words of reproach. Disgust at the perpetrators and horror at what they did come to mind, but they don't begin to cover it.

Not to defend these soldiers, or any soldiers anywhere, but this is what happens to people who are exposed to the violence of war for long enough: it warps their viewpoint of the situation into an us vs. them outlook, that can only lead to such dehumanizing acts.

I'm not sure which of the parties I should feel sadder for, truthfully.

[lord-keeper.livejournal.com]

OK, I am quite sure I will get dragged over the coals for my views on this one.....but WTF!

Compared to how they have treated our soldiers and civillians, they are being very well treated. IN COMPARISON HERE PEOPLE.

I just finished reading the entire article and there is something seriously wrong here. Whjile I do NOT condone the actions of these people or the sick glee some of them seem to be getting from thier actions, their non-comm in charge had repeatedly asked for rules and regulations for thier actions. All the while the CIA and FBI were telling them "Good job, keep up the good work" as far as pre-breaking the prinoners for interogations. Also note that NONE of the CIA, FBI (military and civillian) interogators are being charged with a thing.

Try to put yourself in thier position. If an interrogater from the CIA told you that you need to break these men down so we can get information from them to help prevent the deaths of more of our troops. What would you do? Personally having been in the military myself (luckly in peace time) I know that I woould have done much worse to save my brothers in arms. I would NOT have been happy with it, I wouldn't be enjoying it (like those in the pics), but you damn well better believe I would be doing it....and then some.

WHY?

Look at it from thier point of view. You are living your life at home and agreed to be "back up" military for the army. Well the army calls you to go to war and you do so willingly and proudly. You get there and they send you to this hell hole that some of the worse tortures and atrocities known to mankind have happened. Your there with maybe 14 others (there were six soldiers and two non-comms there when he left) for OVER 900 military prisoners (and I am assuming ex guards and tortures of that prison) and you are told by professional, highly trained interogaters to "break them...how eveer you can"! Then when you go to your chain of command for rules and regulationson how to treat the prisoners. Nothing....for months! No rules...no regulations...just the CIA telling you and your troops to "break them".

You have no training in this, your not even given the Geneva rulles for the treatment of prisoners until AFTER you have been charged and relieved of duty.

Your dumped int othe most stressful place on this planet and told to do these things when you are completely outnumbered by nearly 100 to 1!

Can you REALLY say you wouldn't snap? Can you REALLY say you wouldn't do the same or even worse?

I can't....

One last thing and I have talked to others as well who agree. This is not a racist statement, but a lot of those "bodies" in the pyrmids seem too light skinned to me to be Iragis. *shrug*

I'll get off my soap box now.

[kyburg.livejournal.com]

Oh hell, why leave anyone out? This is just the beginning, if we're lucky - but you know the SOP - the guys really resonsible for this mess won't be held accountable.

But that doesn't mean I'm going to shut up about it.

If the FBI and CIA were who these people were answering to, then they have to answer up as well.

They spared no one at Nuremberg. They shouldn't spare anyone now. "Following orders" is just not damn good enough.

[lord-keeper.livejournal.com]

I agree that following orders is not good enough...for doing what you TRULY know is wrong. But when you ask if your doing the right thing and you get no onswer at all from your direct chain of command and the only answer you are getting is "good job...keep up the good work" your kind of screwed.

They were after all dealing with adult "enemy" men. The same people that have killed and mutilated our troops and hung thier disembowled bodies from a bridge. Granted they are not the EXACT people who did it, but in thier eyes, that is who they see when looking at them.

If they had been ordered to wipe out a village of women and children and did it...I would think they should be crusified completely. They would know they were doing definite wrong. But in this case they honestly thought they were doing the right thing.

[neintales.livejournal.com]

*looks at the grins again*

They certainly made it look more like they were doing the 'fun' thing, more than a 'right thing that we guess we are told to do, though it's distasteful'.

From what some friends of mine who have been in the military say, you are, in fact, taught basics of prisoner detention when you are in training....

I believe also the dates of the abuse are BEFORE the bridge incident when I'm reading news articles? Stuff about JANUARY having problems already....

I'm sorry, but no dice... these are relatively helpless prisoners, and it is not "better" than killing a village of women and children. Hell.. in some areas of the mideast, the CHILDREN *are* in fact being trained to be a threat- more so than a bunch of men crowded into itty spaces, under lock and key and guard are.

They turned off their thinking abilities if they thought they were doing 'right,' especially if they were so certain they were taking pictures of themselves SMILING while doing it. And I have no sympathy for anyone who's going around heavily armed, in a position of power, with no thinking.

And yeah, people get stressed to the stupid point... this is why there's supposed to be people watching those people, and people screening THOSE people. The behavior of the soldiers who perpetuated the abuse is not justifiable, and they did WRONG... but the higher ups who looked the other way or didn't think to look at all also did do WRONG- and both groups should be punished... just as the Iraqi soldiers who have tortured our troops, when they are apprehended, will undoubtedly be getting war-crime trials and punishments.

We can't shrug off what the representatives of our country did, or say they have justifications, or we're just as bad as them, and as the nutjob that supposedly we were saving people from.

[lord-keeper.livejournal.com]

Please read the article again. We are talking about reserve and National guard here...they do NOT recieve the same training about dealing with prisoners of war as the regular army.

I never said what they were doing was indeed the right thing to do. But we have the luxury to not be dealing with the stress that they have to deal with.

I also agree that the smiles and grins add a more disturbing level to the whole situation. Perahps....and I do mean PERHAPS it is more of a situation of a person who is dying will have a tendency to laugh rather than cry.

Having problems already in January does not mean that these pics are from THAT time period. As far as I could tell from the article that I read the date of the pics are not really dated at all.

If you get stressed to the stupid point and someone in charge tells you your doing a good job and want you to do even more....you will.

I by NO MEANS say what they did is right...or even just. But with the circumstances they are under...it is understandable.

I also agree that the higher ups should be held accountable (and some are) but also the CIA and FBI as well.

[lord-keeper.livejournal.com]

Oh...one more thing....since you had to talk to friends that have been in the military, you have not. Not that I am holding that against you, but if you are ordered to do somethign and you feel it is wrong. You do have the right to request confirmation from your chain of command. When that is not forth coming and you are told by a "secondary chain of command" to do this or that to the best of your ability. You have no choice...you DO IT!

[kyburg.livejournal.com]

But as the pictures show, did they have to enjoy it so much?

And that's unfair too. Wrong is wrong. But hullie GHU - this is ugly.

[unclejimbo.livejournal.com]

I was military, I was Reserves, Army to be exact, I WAS instructed on the Geneva Convention and how it applied to me as a soldier if I were taken prisoner and if I were to take prisoners.

The behavior in this prison is unexcuseable. As for not getting instructions, it took me all of 2 seconds to pull up the text of the Geneva Convention on Google.

Geneva Convention specifically that pertaining to treatment of prisoners of war.

Article 2

In addition to the provisions which shall be implemented in peace time, the present Convention shall apply to all cases of declared war or of any other armed conflict which may arise between two or more of the High Contracting Parties, even if the state of war is not recognized by one of them.

The Convention shall also apply to all cases of partial or total occupation of the territory of a High Contracting Party, even if the said occupation meets with no armed resistance.

Although one of the Powers in conflict may not be a party to the present Convention, the Powers who are parties thereto shall remain bound by it in their mutual relations. They shall furthermore be bound by the Convention in relation to the said Power, if the latter accepts and applies the provisions thereof.

Article 3

In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions:

1. Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.

To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:

(a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;

(b) Taking of hostages;

(c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment;

(d) The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.

There are options, even in the military. In the Army, the Inspector General's Office was separate from the chain of command and worked very well. If you are given an unlawful order, or in this case an unlawful order from someone outside the chain of command, you are not obligated to follow the order given. In this case, I would have demanded a court-martial to expose this behavior. As far as I know, the CIA and FBI have no standing in the military chain of command.

We signed the Geneva Conventions, we Ratified the treaty in the Senate and are obligated to observe it. Period! The fact that we are not, and destroying Fallujia is the same as destroying a villiage in your example. It is a crime. Those responsible need to be held accountable or we are no better than Saddam Hussein and his ilk.

[musicalchaos.livejournal.com]

*tries to control gag reflex* And yet another reason for me to fight tooth and nail against going into the armed forces. I don't give a shit how many people in my family have served, I'm not going to be part of anything that does shit like that.

[solidkz.livejournal.com]

The more people who say things like that, the fewer people there will be IN the Military who are willing to stand up for preventing shit like that.

[solidkz.livejournal.com]

One thing I want to point out before this really gets out of hand is that the Army already put a stop to this, already started their own investigation, and if they hold true to form, they've cracked down on every soldier over there with new rules, all this before this story ever went public.

[kyburg.livejournal.com]

Hon, how do you think this ever got broken as news to the public?

(I still recall how many times you weren't allowed to photograph this or that - and frankly, I am certain if there were no pictures of this, no investigation would have occurred.)

I'm bracing myself for the next one. And I resent the holy hell out of that.