Hope nobody is wondering -
Jul. 2nd, 2004 12:07 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
kyburgIf you were to ask who I'd like to meet - anyone - I'd ask for Bill Cosby.
I'm glad that hasn't changed.
"Dogs, water hoses that tear the bark off trees, Emmett Till," he said, naming the black youth who was tortured and murdered in Mississippi in 1955, allegedly for whistling at a white woman. "And you're going to tell me you're going to drop out of school? You're going to tell me you're going to steal from a store?"
Cosby also said he wasn't concerned that some whites took his comments and turned them "against our people."
"Let them talk," he said.
Cosby Has Harsh Words for Black Community
Thu Jul 1, 7:27 PM ET
By DON BABWIN, Associated Press Writer
CHICAGO - Bill Cosby (news) went off on another tirade against the black community Thursday, telling a room full of activists that black children are running around not knowing how to read or write and "going nowhere."
He also had harsh words for struggling black men, telling them: "Stop beating up your women because you can't find a job."
Cosby made headlines in May when he upbraided some poor blacks for their grammar and accused them of squandering opportunities the civil rights movement gave them. He shot back Thursday, saying his detractors were trying in vain to hide the black community's "dirty laundry."
"Let me tell you something, your dirty laundry gets out of school at 2:30 every day, it's cursing and calling each other n------ as they're walking up and down the street," Cosby said during an appearance at the Rainbow/PUSH Coalition & Citizenship Education Fund's annual conference.
"They think they're hip," the entertainer said. "They can't read; they can't write. They're laughing and giggling, and they're going nowhere."
In his remarks in May at a commemoration of the anniversary of the Brown v. Board of Education desegregation decision, Cosby denounced some blacks' grammar and said those who commit crimes and wind up behind bars "are not political prisoners."
"I can't even talk the way these people talk, 'Why you ain't,' 'Where you is' ... and I blamed the kid until I heard the mother talk," Cosby said then. "And then I heard the father talk ... Everybody knows it's important to speak English except these knuckleheads. You can't be a doctor with that kind of crap coming out of your mouth."
Cosby elaborated Thursday on his previous comments in a talk interrupted several times by applause. He castigated some blacks, saying that they cannot simply blame whites for problems such as teen pregnancy and high school dropout rates.
"For me there is a time ... when we have to turn the mirror around," he said. "Because for me it is almost analgesic to talk about what the white man is doing against us. And it keeps a person frozen in their seat, it keeps you frozen in your hole you're sitting in."
Cosby lamented that the racial slurs once used by those who lynched blacks are now a favorite expression of black children. And he blamed parents.
"When you put on a record and that record is yelling `n----- this and n----- that' and you've got your little 6-year-old, 7-year-old sitting in the back seat of the car, those children hear that," he said.
He also condemned black men who missed out on opportunities and are now angry about their lives.
"You've got to stop beating up your women because you can't find a job, because you didn't want to get an education and now you're (earning) minimum wage," Cosby said. "You should have thought more of yourself when you were in high school, when you had an opportunity."
Cosby appeared Thursday with the Rev. Jesse Jackson (news - web sites), founder and president of the education fund, who defended the entertainer's statements.
"Bill is saying let's fight the right fight, let's level the playing field," Jackson said. "Drunk people can't do that. Illiterate people can't do that."
Cosby also said many young people are failing to honor the sacrifices made by those who struggled and died during the civil rights movement.
"Dogs, water hoses that tear the bark off trees, Emmett Till," he said, naming the black youth who was tortured and murdered in Mississippi in 1955, allegedly for whistling at a white woman. "And you're going to tell me you're going to drop out of school? You're going to tell me you're going to steal from a store?"
Cosby also said he wasn't concerned that some whites took his comments and turned them "against our people."
"Let them talk," he said.
You got it. But he's been saying it for years. Who's listening?
I'm glad that hasn't changed.
"Dogs, water hoses that tear the bark off trees, Emmett Till," he said, naming the black youth who was tortured and murdered in Mississippi in 1955, allegedly for whistling at a white woman. "And you're going to tell me you're going to drop out of school? You're going to tell me you're going to steal from a store?"
Cosby also said he wasn't concerned that some whites took his comments and turned them "against our people."
"Let them talk," he said.
Cosby Has Harsh Words for Black Community
Thu Jul 1, 7:27 PM ET
By DON BABWIN, Associated Press Writer
CHICAGO - Bill Cosby (news) went off on another tirade against the black community Thursday, telling a room full of activists that black children are running around not knowing how to read or write and "going nowhere."
He also had harsh words for struggling black men, telling them: "Stop beating up your women because you can't find a job."
Cosby made headlines in May when he upbraided some poor blacks for their grammar and accused them of squandering opportunities the civil rights movement gave them. He shot back Thursday, saying his detractors were trying in vain to hide the black community's "dirty laundry."
"Let me tell you something, your dirty laundry gets out of school at 2:30 every day, it's cursing and calling each other n------ as they're walking up and down the street," Cosby said during an appearance at the Rainbow/PUSH Coalition & Citizenship Education Fund's annual conference.
"They think they're hip," the entertainer said. "They can't read; they can't write. They're laughing and giggling, and they're going nowhere."
In his remarks in May at a commemoration of the anniversary of the Brown v. Board of Education desegregation decision, Cosby denounced some blacks' grammar and said those who commit crimes and wind up behind bars "are not political prisoners."
"I can't even talk the way these people talk, 'Why you ain't,' 'Where you is' ... and I blamed the kid until I heard the mother talk," Cosby said then. "And then I heard the father talk ... Everybody knows it's important to speak English except these knuckleheads. You can't be a doctor with that kind of crap coming out of your mouth."
Cosby elaborated Thursday on his previous comments in a talk interrupted several times by applause. He castigated some blacks, saying that they cannot simply blame whites for problems such as teen pregnancy and high school dropout rates.
"For me there is a time ... when we have to turn the mirror around," he said. "Because for me it is almost analgesic to talk about what the white man is doing against us. And it keeps a person frozen in their seat, it keeps you frozen in your hole you're sitting in."
Cosby lamented that the racial slurs once used by those who lynched blacks are now a favorite expression of black children. And he blamed parents.
"When you put on a record and that record is yelling `n----- this and n----- that' and you've got your little 6-year-old, 7-year-old sitting in the back seat of the car, those children hear that," he said.
He also condemned black men who missed out on opportunities and are now angry about their lives.
"You've got to stop beating up your women because you can't find a job, because you didn't want to get an education and now you're (earning) minimum wage," Cosby said. "You should have thought more of yourself when you were in high school, when you had an opportunity."
Cosby appeared Thursday with the Rev. Jesse Jackson (news - web sites), founder and president of the education fund, who defended the entertainer's statements.
"Bill is saying let's fight the right fight, let's level the playing field," Jackson said. "Drunk people can't do that. Illiterate people can't do that."
Cosby also said many young people are failing to honor the sacrifices made by those who struggled and died during the civil rights movement.
"Dogs, water hoses that tear the bark off trees, Emmett Till," he said, naming the black youth who was tortured and murdered in Mississippi in 1955, allegedly for whistling at a white woman. "And you're going to tell me you're going to drop out of school? You're going to tell me you're going to steal from a store?"
Cosby also said he wasn't concerned that some whites took his comments and turned them "against our people."
"Let them talk," he said.
You got it. But he's been saying it for years. Who's listening?
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2004-07-02 02:24 pm (UTC)but, saddly, not nearly enough people listen
no subject
Date: 2004-07-02 02:48 pm (UTC)Apparently....
Date: 2004-07-02 03:23 pm (UTC)He's a brilliant man and people should be listening to him. He's a perfect example of what he's trying to tell people.
no subject
Date: 2004-07-02 04:33 pm (UTC)You do know that African American Venacular English is a valid dialect with rules and constructions similar to those found in many other languages?
Its lack of social currency in the mainstream US has nothing to do with its linguistic validity.
(His other points may be valid... but his linguistic points, not so much.)
no subject
Date: 2004-07-02 05:03 pm (UTC)For example, which brain surgeon do you want working on you?:
1. "We are going to pinpoint the exact lobe where your pressure is originating and try to extract the infection through a new means of electroshock treatment."
or
2. "what we gonna do is just go on in dere and suck that sucker out wit sum bolts of 'lectrissty, aight?"
they could be just as well educated and JUST as qualified to perform the surgery but you KNOW that deep inside you don't feel as comfortable with the second option because his VERNACULAR say he's "uneducated".
anywho, my two cents, i love Bill Cosby for the years of unspoiled wisdom he's given the world. I wish more minorities would follow in his footsteps and embrace the opportunities found in this country.
no subject
Date: 2004-07-02 05:18 pm (UTC)I never said that there weren't severe social disadvantages to speaking African American Vernacular English. Now, whether or not it's actually a dialect of English or a totally different language is a potentially valid question that I won't presume to know the answer to.
but this is America. [...] why do you think i get mad at the mexicans who come here and get pissy with me for not knowing spanish?
Right, this is America, and we don't have a national language. Unlike Canada, which gives extra points to English and French speakers, there's no language requirement here.
Of course, you may think this is a travesty.
For example, which brain surgeon do you want working on you?:
1. "We are going to pinpoint the exact lobe where your pressure is originating and try to extract the infection through a new means of electroshock treatment."
or
2. "what we gonna do is just go on in dere and suck that sucker out wit sum bolts of 'lectrissty, aight?"
It seems to me that the problem in #2 is not the phonological differences or the syntactic differences from Mainstream US English as it is the word choices which betray a lack of knowledge. If I was to be treated by an AAVE-speaking doctor who had non-mainstream syntax and phonolgy but seemed to know what he was doing medically, I'd be fine with that.
Hell, I'm from Michigan. My own phonology isn't terribly standard; I've got no business picking on anyone else's.
It is true that the ability to speak Mainstream US English is a mark of education for those who don't grow up speaking that -- because the educational system strongly promotes mainstream English and helps perpetuate the stigma against minority varieties. But personally, I think it's a shame that we seem to be so intent on producing a linguistic monoculture.
no subject
Date: 2004-07-04 01:14 am (UTC)And by "people" we mean "white people."
--Kynn
no subject
Date: 2004-07-05 06:17 am (UTC)lemme give you and example:
the chinese woman who moved here to san antonio and got her nursing degree in the US by learning english and landed a great job at the hospital does NOT need to be yelled at for not knowing spanish. But she has, and she will continue to be, because people are ignorant.
no subject
Date: 2004-07-02 08:21 pm (UTC)"African-Americans" are people who have emigrated from an African country and become naturalized citizens. This includes white South Africans.
My family comes from Scotland and Ireland, albeit many generations ago. Like blacks, Jews, and many other groups of people, we were terrorized by a stronger empire who held us down for generations. So why is it we're not allowed to use "Scots-Irish American" as a "racial" title?
no subject
Date: 2004-07-02 09:36 pm (UTC)"African American Vernacular English" is the most common name used in the literature for the dialect; it's a convention that I don't really think much about at this time.
Anyway, I've certainly seen groups that have been subsumed under "white" use the "x-American" fomulation to describe themselves. "Italian American" comes to mind. I don't see why you couldn't describe yourself as a "Scots-Irish American" if you wanted to.
A Rose, By Any Other Name Would Smell As Sweet.
Date: 2004-07-04 07:01 am (UTC)In regards to referring to myself as Scots-Irish-American, my point is that on federal forms, when racial heritage information is requested/required, why is it that "African-American" is often seen, but other hyphenations are not?
As a matter of fact, why is "African-American" used to describe a race of humanity? Africa is a continent, not a race.
There is but one race of humanity - that being humanity itself. If you were to look up the Linnaean Classification for human beings, you'd find a very interesting fact: we're all the same.
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Mammalia
Order: Primates
Family: Hominidae
Genus: Homo
Species: Sapiens
And there it ends, with no distinction on skin color. If only we were all as wise as Carolus Linnaeus.
no subject
Date: 2004-07-04 01:17 am (UTC)If you want to use "Scots-Irish American", by all means, go ahead. But what on Earth upsets you so much about "African American"? Jealousy that you don't have a nice title for yourself?
You've got a huge amount of white privilege, and it's unseemly to rant and rage that you're not "allowed" to be called by a race identifier.
--Kynn
no subject
Date: 2004-07-04 06:46 am (UTC)First of all, I'm neither ranting nor raging, and I'm sorry if you're taking it that way. I didn't use profanity, I didn't use all caps, and I didn't use underscores or asterisks to denote emphasis. Where do you see ranting and raging?
On to your salient points:
Why does anyone have to be accepted as a color? Why not just label everyone "Americans" and be done with it? It's barbaric to impose, and hypocritical to self-impose, a separation based on skin color.
My "title," as you put it, is simply "U.S. Citizen," and it should be so for everyone who lives here. If we're ever going to get past the history of racial bias and prejudice, we must do away with divisive titles.
As to my white privilege, I don't believe you know enough about me or my heritage to make that statement. It's quite inappropriate to assume so much and then make sweeping generalizations. I could do the same with you and assume that since you live in Lake Elsinore, you've got quite a bit of white privilege yourself. However, it's possible that you're really working at Circle K for minimum wage and living in a hovel. To be fair, it doesn't matter either way. Ergo, my skin color, and the supposed privileges awarded to me because of it, have no particular relevance to this discussion.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
"I have a dream...that someday my children will be judged not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
As long as anyone, regardless of racial or national heritage, insists on hyphenating or modifying the all-encompassing description of "American," we will be a divided society with no hope of ever being truly equal.
no subject
Date: 2004-08-03 03:52 pm (UTC)You act as if I invented the concept of race or something.
It would be nice if we could simply label everyone as "Americans," but out in the real world it's not actually working that way. There are plenty of times in which those of us who pass as "white Americans" are treated a lot better than Americans who have particular skin colors, ethnic background, or identity.
Racism does still exist, and pretending it doesn't won't miraculously make the problem go away.
One of the primary ways in which racism perpetuates itself is white refusal to acknowledge that there is a problem. When I hear stories about white men shouting "Nigger! Nigger!" at a car with a mother and her small children (this happened to friends of mine recently), I know that your approach to simply pretend this never happens won't solve anything.
My "title," as you put it, is simply "U.S. Citizen," and it should be so for everyone who lives here.
Well, there are plenty of people who live here who aren't "U.S. Citizens."
If we're ever going to get past the history of racial bias and prejudice, we must do away with divisive titles.
So do you see St. Patrick's Day as being racially divisive? I know people who identify as Irish-American. That's bad? What about Jewish Americans?
As to my white privilege, I don't believe you know enough about me or my heritage to make that statement. It's quite inappropriate to assume so much and then make sweeping generalizations.
White males have something called "white privilege" -- in general, they're treated far better than someone who is not white (and not male, for that matter). In some cases, it's simply not being thought of as a potential criminal just because of the color of our skin.
I could do the same with you and assume that since you live in Lake Elsinore, you've got quite a bit of white privilege yourself. However, it's possible that you're really working at Circle K for minimum wage and living in a hovel.
Living in Lake Elsinore doesn't mean one thing or another; there are plenty of poor whites and poor blacks and poor Latinos and poor Asians here, and plenty of rich folks too (of the same ethnic mix).
However, it's true that I do benefit from white privilege. As a white male, I am given an extra "head start" in life, as well as various shortcuts along the path, which aren't granted to my brothers and sisters of color. I acknowledge this, and there's no shame in doing so. Our current system is broken in racist ways, and I am a beneficiary of that brokenness -- but I fight to change it.
To be fair, it doesn't matter either way. Ergo, my skin color, and the supposed privileges awarded to me because of it, have no particular relevance to this discussion.
Are you willing to admit that white privilege does exist?
"We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal." / "I have a dream...that someday my children will be judged not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Everyone agrees that's the goal, but what are you doing to get us there? Or are we already there and nothing more needs to be done? (One of the most obvious privileges of being white is the ability to convince onesself that racism is over -- a luxury that people of other races don't have.)
As long as anyone, regardless of racial or national heritage, insists on hyphenating or modifying the all-encompassing description of "American," we will be a divided society with no hope of ever being truly equal.
So the biggest barrier to racial equality is ... people calling themselves Italian-American? You really believe that's the big problem in America today, and if we just stopped using hyphenated adjectives, racism would fade away?
Seriously?
--Kynn
no subject
Date: 2004-07-02 09:42 pm (UTC)I believe that Mr. Cosby and I share the same opinion... What a load of CRAP!
Its lack of social currency in the mainstream US has nothing to do with its linguistic validity.
If you want to be taken seriously, you need to present yourself in a certain fashion. When you come in saying, "'Sup, nigga? Yu gotta job yu need doin'?" I seriously doubt anyone is going to take that person seriously even if he could qualify for MENSA 10 times over.
Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. hoped that someday people "would be judged not by the color of their skin but the content of their character." Making themselves into parodies of those around them does nothing to make this dream a reality.
Also, could you actually imagine a college professor discuss in a classroom the proper conjugation of the word 'motherfucker'? Seriously?
no subject
Date: 2004-07-03 05:17 am (UTC)Right. Yes. I never said people don't think poorly of AAVE speakers. Obviously they do. But the fact that it is a highly stigmatized dialect doesn't change the fact that it is a dialect, and not simply "crap."
Also, could you actually imagine a college professor discuss in a classroom the proper conjugation of the word 'motherfucker'? Seriously?
There's 30-40 years worth of highly regarded scholarly research on AAVE by sociolinguists, such as this and this and this, all of which were written by college professors.
no subject
Date: 2004-07-03 08:28 am (UTC)The folks bringing their children over to my house Sunday have a nice legacy provided to them by their parents. They were taught to use nothing but the best spoken English, complete with please, thank you and Yes Sir and Yes M'am. (I might not find the Yes Sirs always appropriate between parent and child, but for them, it works.) The reason?
"Why would I teach my child a behavior that only works in certain situations? Why would choose to limit them in that way? If I teach my children to behave in a fashion where they are accepted anywhere - then they can go anywhere in the world. Right?
"If I do not, then what I have I done to them?"
My friend Cedric, the 3rd (I think, but he topped out - and considers himself retired) degree black belt who works his late father's business as an electrician - and is about the same color as his belt, refuses to speak anything but Standard American English. He's mentioned it a couple of times - the nice old ladies who singsong to him and tell him he can stop talking that way...and he refuses.
"No...no, that's okay." When he gets out of earshot, he shakes his head and winces. Keep in mind, we're bumping heads a bit as he still thinks Fox News and Rush know more than I do - I think he's being used and lied to - but I've seen him on more than one occasion mention being approached (and how did it go?) by a "brother" who "wanted some hep."
He was told to get a job. To get a job, you have to sound like you were at least listening in class.
Standard American English. There are many creoles of English - American actually being one of them, and arguably, Hawaiian pidgin being another - and while they are verifiable, documented and in use, are not considered polite, educated speech.
Want to be taken seriously? You dress well for an interview, you polish your shoes and check your grooming. How you speak is just as important, neh?
Or the old story behind Pygmalion is just a fairy tale, right?
no subject
Date: 2004-07-03 11:07 am (UTC)On the other hand... in so many other instances, it's considered fairly horrible these days for a wider society to demand that minorities just... give up something that's deeply culturally and/or personally important for the sake of other people. Except when it's the way they talk. I don't find linguistic discrimination to be more palatable than any other kind, and I don't find the solution to it to be different that the solution to other kinds of discrimination -- educating the people with the prejudice.
Because while it's true that teaching speakers of minority dialects a more standard variety is one solution to the problem, I nevertheless don't see why educating other people about the wide world of varieties of English is rarely considered.
< steps off soapbox >
no subject
Date: 2004-07-03 02:13 pm (UTC)I fully agree that it's important for black Americans who want to "move up in the world" to know how to speak standard English. What makes me twitch is the apparent opinion of so many people that Black English dialects should all simply go away, never to be heard anywhere again.
no subject
Date: 2004-07-04 07:10 am (UTC)You make an *excellent* point. *re-thinks position slightly*
"I fully agree that it's important for black Americans who want to "move up in the world" to know how to speak standard English."
I think it's important for ALL Americans, regardless of skin tone.
I just don't relish the idea that if one speaks standard American English well, then one's own culture has been homogenized or polluted.
no subject
Date: 2004-07-04 01:19 am (UTC)Yeah, now we'll just judge them by the content of their dialect?
Also, could you actually imagine a college professor discuss in a classroom the proper conjugation of the word 'motherfucker'? Seriously?
I think your own English skills are lacking. Since when do you conjugate a noun?
--Kynn
no subject
Date: 2004-07-05 11:08 am (UTC)You do get judged on your dialect.
Hon, I grew up in Hemet. I had no idea I had a modified Okie accent until I got to Pomona. Believe me, I fixed that as quickly as I could. Immediately, I acquired 100 IQ points. It was frightening.
I also took a job to pay my phone bill once - with the NRA in a phone bank. To make it bearable, I did dialects with the information operators when I had to look up numbers.
Sound Asian? Okay. Sound Hispanic? Fergit it. Sound like the person answering the phone? Purrrrrrr.
Jim has a modified midwestern/Tennessee twang with a touch of German lisp to make it interesting. He also has a bad habit of using "gots" instead of "has." Does he clean that up in business situations? Oh, you betcha.
Does he ever relate anything his grandmother said, as it was said? I've heard the "translations" he uses - he wants people to think well of her. The woman (and a fine lady she was, too) was, like her husband, functionally illiterate. She acquired her GED in her sixties. Balancing a checkbook was so stressful, it made her ill.
No, she did not use Standard American English. Her daughter, who teaches remedial math at Berea University in Kentucky, uses her middle name professionally because her given name is - well - nonstandard. (This woman is scary smart when it comes to higher math. Fear her.) The aunt has a delightful Tennessee twang - it sweetens her speech, but does not obliterate it. And it fades the more professional the content becomes.
Common ground. Acceptable under any circumstances. The most polite of forms. Whatever you care to call it - it's real, and one of the ways we determine who is safe by association or recognition.
no subject
Date: 2004-07-04 01:22 am (UTC)One more comment -- many people who speak like that do get taken seriously and some of them make much more money than either you or I do.
When you say "I seriously doubt anyone is going to take that person seriously" you really mean "I seriously doubt any educated white people"...
(Yeah, yeah, and Bill Cosby. But that's not really what you're saying. The dialect is unacceptable because it's from black society, and the white majority culture frowns on it for that reason, just as it frowns on any other subculture dialects.)
--Kynn
no subject
Date: 2004-07-04 09:53 am (UTC)I am assuming you mean artists in the hip-hop and rap genres. (Also a few sports figures.) Yes, they do make a lot more money... For a while, but generally they do not last very long as compared to their musical contemporaries of 20-30 years ago.
Also, only so many people can make money in that fashion. Even Sean 'P-Diddy' Combs(sp?) is finding that how he presents himself determines how much money he can make. When he is in negotiations for a motion picture or new album, I seriously doubt he is using street slang.
no subject
Date: 2004-07-04 07:05 am (UTC)It's Latin for "table," which is what the founding members of Mensa envisioned at the outset of the society: a table where everyone could come together on an equal basis in the spirit of cooperation.
no subject
Date: 2004-07-04 09:54 am (UTC)Thanks!
no subject
Date: 2004-07-03 06:59 am (UTC)I think it's important to know when to use proper language as opposed to a dialect, or slang. I don't care if my doctor uses AAVE with other people, but if he wants my business he needs to be able to communicate with me.
no subject
Date: 2004-07-02 07:30 pm (UTC)I know how I feel every TIME I hear the word "nigga" thrown around casually. Nauseous... it seems insane and self-derogatory and limiting, not to mention nonsensical, to call yourself something that has for DECADES been a derogatory term...
And I know I'm getting *tempted* towards being racist from the way the kids who come in little gangs to the store act...
It's summertime here. This means there's going to be more problems from these kids, as they're left unsupervised by parents to run around the neighborhood, peeping, vandalizing, and stealing.. and being 'COOL'.
I'd like to tape Bill's speech to those kids' foreheads when I'm sending them off.
no subject
Date: 2004-07-03 08:11 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-07-04 01:28 am (UTC)Right. Because the most important issue about the word nigger/nigga is how it makes white people feel.
it seems insane and self-derogatory and limiting, not to mention nonsensical, to call yourself something that has for DECADES been a derogatory term...
You mean "centuries."
What do you think about queers and fags and dykes who call each other queers and fags and dykes?
And I know I'm getting *tempted* towards being racist from the way the kids who come in little gangs to the store act... [...] I'd like to tape Bill's speech to those kids' foreheads when I'm sending them off.
Right. Because the most important quality of these kids' lives is the fact that they're black, and here's Bill Cosby saying stuff about black people, so it must apply to them.
If white kids came in and did the same thing, you'd do what about it?
--Kynn
no subject
Date: 2004-07-04 03:03 am (UTC)No, because I feel that words and objects can get a kind of spirit associated with them, and something that *originated* as an insult on the level that the word "nigger" originated on can not be cleansed of the bad karma.
It's like schooling myself to NOT refer to myself as a 'freak'. Even when it seems that a person ISN'T thinking about the derogatory meanings, on a subconscious level, they are, and that WILL pull them down.
It's about how it makes people feel. No adjective in front of the 'people'. I know quite a few non-caucasian people who would agree with me on what the word 'nigger' makes them think/feel.
Or do you want to say "They're just white inside, then."?
If white kids came in and did the same thing, you'd do what about it?
I do the exact same thing I do to any other color kid who comes in, tell them they can't come in without a parent, get firm and then bitch about them later to sympathetic ears if they gave me problems.
This post that inspired my reply was, however, NOT about how white kids are shits today too. Which yes, they are.
It had to do with a group of people seeming to force themselves to become a stereotype. If someone HAD posted about caucasian kids and caucasian problems I would have chimed in and bitched about that too.
In continuation... because LJ has a limit and this was hella long:
Date: 2004-07-04 03:04 am (UTC)Spouse abuse, child abuse, alcohol abuse, rampant illiteracy, ignorance, and a clannish way of looking at the world is a serious problem for EVERYONE.
Excuse me here a moment, but is it WHITE of me to want people to be civil and speak English at least passably well when they're yes, living in an English speaking area, dealing with people who speak English? Or is it maybe HUMAN of me?
You can argue all you want about the downfalls of a monolingual society, but the fact of the matter is a large chunk of land or nation does need a 'fall back on' language no matter what OTHER language you might speak... one that a larger portion of population WILL understand so that there can be communication.
I'm all for more American kids learning several different languages, and hell, if they want, they can learn the African-American vernaculars.. but I do want them to also know how to speak and read in the 'common tongue' as it were. And I want them to stay in school, and not join gangs, do drugs, etc.
"But I'm an American" doesn't work as an excuse for me to be a rude bitch to people I meet in foreign places. "But I'm a woman" isn't an excuse for me to talk on the phone at work all day instead of working. And if I were black, I don't think I'd say it's an excuse to act in certain ways.
For the record, unless I'm among VERY good friends, I don't use the derogatory terms "fag" or "dyke" for homosexuals or bisexuals, and then when I do it's usually in context of a bad pun or dirty joke. Usually the bad pun. And I can't STAND it when other people, including lesbians and gay men also constantly refer to themselves as fags or dykes.
I also hate it when people refer to something that is lame as 'being gay'.
Nor do I want to hear Chinese people calling themselves "Chinks", Vietnamese calling themselves "Charlies", Hispanics or Mexicans calling themselves "Spics" "Beaners" or "Wetbacks", etc., any more than I would want to hear ANY human of ANY other race call them such.
To me, saying that it's racist of me to tell people they shouldn't insult themselves is like telling me that I should say it's ok for people to maim or kill each other because, yanno, it's a CULTURAL thing, just on a rather less nasty level of importance. Hurting the mind and psyche can be as damaging as hurting the body.
And telling me it's racist for me to expect that someone who lives in a country, ANY country, with a common language will put some kind of serious study into that language, is rather ridiculous. If I moved to Mexico, I would certainly work like hell to learn Spanish.
How very white, middle-class and deist of me.
Kyburg, keep me posted if I miss Jeff Foxworthy giving a serious speech to rednecks about how a lot of them are drinking too much, abusing their families, and dropping out of school, and how it really isn't funny.
I'd really look forward to that.
Re: In continuation... because LJ has a limit and this was hella long:
Date: 2004-07-04 10:16 am (UTC)because i'm "white" does not mean i can't have an opinion on the way black people treat each other and abuse the system that was put there to HELP them. in fact it's a system that was built to help ANYONE regardless of race, creedo or sex. did you know that to come to America (or you parents are immigrants and give birth to you while they are here) you get 18 years of free public school before you have to become a citizen? i don't know of any other country where that's possible. To say that "whitey" is holding kids back is blasphemy. I'm 24 years old. I saw 6 years ago when i graduated from highschool how the hispanics here in san antonio (many of them FRIENDS of mine) were given scholarships, grants and tuition for simply completing highschool. that's all they had to do! I live in the same neighboorhood, went to the same H.S. all 4 years, and many of these kids' came from richer families with only one child. in fact, most times we went out, i was broke. AND I WAS WORKING trying to help my mom take care of 4 kids! But i don't blame my background for anything. I was handed every opportunity along with every other kid in my town. some of us took advantage of it. some of us didn't. in my family, i was the only kid to go to college. the three brothers who followed me have all joined the navy.
was i held back for being a woman? no. were my friends (all hispanics & black, btw) held back for being a "minority"? no. in fact they actually completed 4 years in college. i moved back home of my own free will.
basically, i think more people need to take responsibility for their own actions. stop taking the easy way out and blaming "society" and "the man" there is a full plate within your reach. if you starve to death, it's your own fault.
Re: In continuation... because LJ has a limit and this was hella long:
Date: 2004-07-04 01:02 pm (UTC)I grew up down there.. and it's one of the reasons I'm being cheesed off by people jumping and saying that 'white people are being racist and trying to impose their biased values on these other people'... I grew up with many hispanic, and yeah, black friends through my youth, and not a single ONE of them, nor their parents would have ever felt it was OK to use derogatory terminology and bad english as a matter of course. Even the families who all spoke Spanish around the house almost as much as they spoke English.
And I'm certain a number of them would be offended if anyone claimed that the only reason they believe these things is because they're falling for whitey dogma. All of them would be, probably.
no subject
Date: 2004-07-05 11:17 am (UTC)I'd be pleased as punch. Frankly, as a group, we laugh at ourselves more easily than any other - because the slaps we toss at ourselves usually have no bite in them.
You're a nigger, a fag, a dyke? You're marked for death. Have been, on more than one occasion.
Cracker? Honky? It's to laugh.
Bantering these terms among yourselves? A mark of survival.