*sniff*

[kyburg]

Still sick. But better, and will go back to work tomorrow.

I've said this, I'm sure of it - stop me if you've heard this one before.

I don't think anyone under the age of oh, 21/22 or so? Should try to have a kid by themselves. No, seriously.

I haven't met a 19-year-old yet I thought was prime parent material, me included.

When is a good time? Hmmm. Get all the school you want out of the way, first. Get a good handle on the kind of job you want to have (and if that means parenting children, that's honest) and make sure you can back it up with the kind of education you need (see former, capiche?)...and be in a stable relationship if you're making the kid yourself. Don't waffle or mince on the last statement. You want optimal, there's your mix.

Oh, and if you're not fabulous by 30, don't kill yourself.

I really think it's only fair you get to be a teenager as long as you're allowed. Make all the mistakes you can reasonably account for yourself, and learn from them - FIRST - before you drag someone else along for the ride.

And when girls start menarche at 11 these days, that's a lot of years you have to be aware of your fertility and managing it. At a time when you're least educated about just about everything.

I am a firm supporter of contraception, and believe that nobody gets pregnant with the express intention of having an abortion - so if you tell me you need one, I believe you need one. It's that simple.

We clear on this?

Please. Don't tell me you think you can care for a baby when you're not even old enough to sign contracts as a legal adult. Not in this world. Oh, and you're already living on your own, independent and all that? No? Children get taken care of by their parents. Not their parents being 'taken care of' by their children, if you get my drift. If - my respect means anything. You asked.

If anything in my adoption journey has taught me, it's that there isn't a shortage of children being born - and frankly, the adoption agencies that advertise "PREGNANT? WANNA SELL YOUR KID?" right next to the "ADOPTIVE PARENTS APPLY HERE" banner make me ill, but that appears to be the typical domestic adoption scenario. I can't blame anyone who doesn't think of that first - but think about it seriously, if you're single, unemployed and under 22. Okay? There are more types of adoption situations than the "traditional" kind - believe me, I've done the research. There's no 'giving up' in adoption these days, not unless you want to.

This is someone who waited - with good reason. It can be done, and you'll have a hard time convincing me it was a mistake.

If you want to toss "well, you're jealous because you haven't got any of your own," I will fucking plant you in the cornfield. While reminding you we weren't talking about me in the first place. Or the second. Maybe not even in the third.

I'm old enough - and the daughter of a nurse who retired after over fifty years in hospitals, before and after Roe - to have seen a long string of really young parents with no other visible support than an accidental pregnancy. Lemme tellya. It never went well. Yeah, there are survivors of the process - and they can get on okay - or not - but while you can plan and choose? Please do. And yes, that's asking a lot.

Parenting is a selfless act, by its very nature. If you can't think of anything but what you want here? Come on.

That's not a responsible parent talking.

Comments

[eyelid.livejournal.com]

I don't know why the abstinence people think it's a piece of cake.

Some know it's not a piece of cake, but that's not good for their argument, so they ignore it.

Others are just dumb.

Re: No Life = No Quality Of Life

[dracowayfarer.livejournal.com]

See, that's where I was getting tripped up, too, but I couldn't find the right words. I think I have them now.

How in the world can he actually wish poverty and abuse upon someone?? Yeah, there's a small chance they might rise above it, but statistically that's pretty much a rarity.

I mean, I understand that it would wrong to ask a kid who was in that kind of situation if s/he would rather have never been born (though, in some cases, sadly their answer would probably be yes).

And anyways, I think it's a generally moot point. I think it's pretty safe to say that most women who think about getting an abortion are not living in that kind of situation.


But, still. That remark just really rubbed me the wrong way.

Re: No Life = No Quality Of Life

[eyelid.livejournal.com]

The whole "would you rather not have been born" thing is kind of a weird issue, though, in general. I mean, if my parents hadn't had sex I wouldn't be here. Or if they'd used contraception at that time. But obviously I don't believe contraception or abstinance are Crimes Against Children. similarly, a fetus doesn't know it's alive or have any self-awareness. It does not care what you do with it because it does not have a consciousness to care WITH.

Re: No Life = No Quality Of Life

[kyburg.livejournal.com]

To offer, Bruce. To offer. I'm well aware you have plenty to say.

Past telling people NOT TO, what else have you got in your arsenal?

Re: times have certainly changed.

[kyburg.livejournal.com]

I've been sick in bed the last couple of days, only surfacing long enough to feed, check LJ and Sim a bit. Email? OH. Will check when I get home tonight.

[riverheart.livejournal.com]

I guess the birthmother will just have to trust to the contract we create, and my own honesty. Isn't family law about, among other things, how blended families best work together to create the best atmosphere for a child?

If the birthmother were drinking, drugging, abusive, etc., then yes, that would definitely enter into it. Aren't legal agreements enforceable? I thought they were, and that the blended family could create a contract that was.

Sounds like you've had a bad deal somewhere along the line. I'm sorry for your experience, if that's so. I believe I am honest enough to do differently.

[eyelid.livejournal.com]

I guess the birthmother will just have to trust to the contract we create, and my own honesty
Or, she could just not go with adoption at all. Which is what most do.

Frankly, as a lawyer I have to say she would be very stupid to trust to any unenforceable contract, or your honesty.


If the birthmother were drinking, drugging, abusive, etc., then yes, that would definitely enter into it.
sort of irrelevant to what we're discussing here though.


Aren't legal agreements enforceable? I thought they were, and that the blended family could create a contract that was.
it depends on the state and on the contract. In general, if the birth mother no longer has parental rights, a contract can't give her those rights. At the very least, she'd have to go through a lengthy and expensive court battle to enforce them, and I doubt many would have the wherewithal.


Sounds like you've had a bad deal somewhere along the line.
I haven't had any bad experiences with adoption. I just have read of the experiences of others. Also, it bothers me when people expect others to give up their children, and act like open adoption is this amazing enforceable thing.

[riverheart.livejournal.com]

Expect others to give up their children? No, I don't. Where are you getting that from? And why do you have this automatic expectation that we will act in bad faith? You want to know about my character? Ask kyburg. Seriously, do.

We will almost certainly be adopting an older child or children from the foster care system, providing a loving family to those kids who need it the very most.

I am disappointed to learn from you that open adoption isn't enforceable, but if it isn't, maybe it should be. Maybe the law should be changed. I assume you're devoting time to activism in that regard.

[eyelid.livejournal.com]

Expect others to give up their children? No, I don't. Where are you getting that from?
The entire point of the post, which you said is "just how you feel" as well, is that people under a certain age, and/or who are single, should place their children for adoption. That bothers me, especially when you coupled it with the idea that open adoption is a solution to the problem of missing one's child.


And why do you have this automatic expectation that we will act in bad faith? You want to know about my character? Ask kyburg. Seriously, do.
Regarding you specifically, I don't assume you will act in bad faith. I know you COULD, legally. And that's enough for me to think a birthmother would be foolish to just trust you.


Maybe the law should be changed. I assume you're devoting time to activism in that regard.
Probably about as much as you are. ;)

[riverheart.livejournal.com]

And that's enough for me to think a birthmother would be foolish to just trust you.

Ergo the need for a contract, one that is legally enforceable, so that those who would act in bad faith cannot do so. It's why I suggest that perhaps the law should be changed.

My activism issue right now is making sure that all of my friends can get married to their chosen spouses, regardless of whether those spouses are the same sex or not. That's taking up a great deal of my activism time, and I don't have enough energy these days to take on another major issue at the same time. I used to, but no more. Damn this kidney disease anyway.

[eyelid.livejournal.com]

my cause is reproductive rights. though I'm all for gay marriage as well.

[kyburg.livejournal.com]

I'm number three out of four of a single parent, after my father died of an accidental overdose when I was a month shy of 7 years old.

Let me ask you something. How did having children affect your husband? Did he also "get a clue" after the children arrived?

One of the things that really twigs my sense of fairness is that it's acceptable for a woman to say "I don't know...guess I'll just be a Mom" as if it were some kind of default setting for not getting on in life. Did you ever hear a guy say "I don't know...guess I'll just be a Dad?" You won't.

You want parenting to have any kind of respect, you don't toss it to the lowest common denominator as if it had no value at all, or required anything past a pregnancy. Most important job in the world, you ask me -

Perfect is for pansies - nothing in this world is perfect, it's just proof that we all carry that spark of the divine in us that can conceive of such a notion. Perfection only exists between our ears - it never happens in real life.

I said optimal - and that's what I'm asked. You short-cut any of it, and you're asking for a harder row to hoe, and that's only what you describe, neh?

[kyburg.livejournal.com]

I got "the talk" at age 9 - and by 15, I was convinced I wasn't going to have anything to do with sex until I had an income to support the habit.

FUN? You gotta be nuts.

[kyburg.livejournal.com]

In my experience, you can just about write the rules yourself - and if you make it a requirement, you make it.

Of course, legally? The last case to truly test the waters was Baby M, who is what, college age now? And that case actually had DNA links to enforce it.

In all honesty, an open adoption is a means by which a biological child has access to a biological parent - no more, no less. How friendly that relationship will be depends on the parties involved - and much like any other kind of non-legal bond - and YUP, that's what it is. Giving up forever? No. Definitely a change in status? Big time.

Take a specific kind of head to get around that one - but I can't imagine a better attempt to take some of the loss out of adoption.

[kyburg.livejournal.com]

Hon, in all honestly, she had a point. The legally enforceable portion would largely entail putting documents and contact information in a place where the child would have access to it. After that, it's all on the parties to get along. If things mesh, all well and good - if things don't, then the parents have to have the well-being of their family as the first priority, not the 'rights' of the biological parents.

But having to say goodbye, never knowing how things went? History.

[eyelid.livejournal.com]

The last case to truly test the waters was Baby M,

not so - there are tons of custody cases taking place all the time, different in every state. We just don't hear about them.


I can't imagine a better attempt to take some of the loss out of adoption.

Really? I can. Giving the birth parent some kind of legal rights. Because even worse than the loss of adoption is thinking you would get some contact with the child you placed, only to be cut off by the adoptive parents after they got what they wanted.

[kyburg.livejournal.com]

Until we take the whole "children as possessions" out of the law, I doubt anyone is going to make much headway here.

Children have to BELONG to someone, and that usually gets defined as one male and one female, normally biological in nature.

Step away from this, and every attempt is made, from a legal standpoint, to define the relationship as rigidly as possible back to this model, minus the biological part. Only two people can claim 'ownership' of a child - of course, the kids, once grown? Usually have other ideas.

You remember when kids got to be part of the settlement in a divorce? I do. One parent getting 'custody' and all that.

You've got better information - if you can relate some of the recent decisions, I'm your best audience right now.

[kyburg.livejournal.com]

Or lazy. *nodsnods*

[kyburg.livejournal.com]

You do if you adopt! BOY.

[tomlemos.livejournal.com]

oh yeah. believe me. i'm starting to do my homework on this one.

definitely in a few years when I have a different occupation for sure. :)

[zakipu.livejournal.com]

Sometime I really should read the comments that happen while I'm reading a post. Truly amazing replies. Wow. Not what I'd originally replied to, and as such, what I did reply with needs to be ignored. I've seen parents on both sides of the selflessness. And I totally agree with your conclusions. Yay :) I'm going to leave it at that until I'm a parent and stuff.

~Z

Wow

[djdig.livejournal.com]

I like your post Donna. It reminded me that I'd forgotten to take my BC when I woke up this morning. (I'm not sexually active anyway so being a few hours off for the dose won't be a catastrophe.)

I'm 22 and even now I have no desire to be a Mom, nor do I think I could responsibly.

I have a friend who got pregnant at age 18 when she was a freshman in college and the father was still in high school. She confided in me years later that she thought she was preventing pregnancy by using the pull out method. *head desk* She went through the same sex ed classes I went through in high school and it scares me that evidently she wasn't listening.

Thankfully, the husband grew up and joined the Marines to support the family. Also thankfully he is stationed on a base in HI in charge of their communications and can not be sent to Iraq until 2009 if he re-enlists. They now have 2 children, the prior mentioned child is 3 and their new baby is 4 months.

While my friend is an amazing Mom, she's all ready wishing she finished college.

It took the father 2 years to start acting like a Dad. Before my friend went to the Marines herself to talk about her husband's pay, he was wasting it on video games rather than helping to take care of the child or his wife.

[elizanikole.livejournal.com]

Having kids brought a lot of things into focus for my husband also. He's a good Dad and he wanted Kaitlyn and Zach very very much. But, Mike was older than me when we had our first child - so I'm not sure that he counts into your cross section here.

I'm the first to admit that life isn't easy. Are there days when I'd like it to be? Yes, yes of course I do. I'd be foolish to say otherwise. But, again, life not being easy doesn't have a baring on whether or not I'm able to be a good parent. I'm a good Mom. Mike is a good Dad. We struggle, but we always make do. We have really happy, blissfully happy children. They're well behaved, they're very smart, they're clean and healthy. They're polite, compassionate and helpful. We're able to achieve that, even though life isn't easy.

So, I don't think I short cut anything at all. I just did it differently than you (And maybe others) think it should get done. That doesn't make anything we did wrong - nor does it invalidate anything you think is important.

Word!!

[nagasvoice.livejournal.com]

I know, I know, preaching to the choir here...

[nagasvoice.livejournal.com]

Oh boy, your last paragraph there, right on the nose. Very, very good point.