Yes, thou ART mortal -

[kyburg]

I strongly suspect someone is doing a lot of explaining right now.

That is all.

Comments

[n6vfp.livejournal.com]

Yes, a lot of explaining....

In Memoriam

[bitpig.livejournal.com]

I disagreed with Jerry Falwell about a great many things, but I believe he was a sincere Christian despite his errors. Yes, he was an Evangelical, but being part of a misguided Enlghtenment schism doesn't make a person evil — just misguided. Yes, he worked hard to promote his own morality within the public sphere — but we all do that. That's what political activity is. He had a right to speak and act in support of what he believed in, just as we all do. He never killed anybody, never committed an act of violence against anybody, never raped anybody — so why is his death being celebrated by the open-minded, the tolerant, the compassionate, those respecful of diversity in thought and belief?

I believe it is because he was a Christian, and unapologetic about it. Modern man, for all his toleration, cannot tolerate authentic Christian morality, proclaimed without compromise. Jerry Falwell's brand of Christianity is not made from the original recipe, and is wrong about a great many things; that is to be expected from a "church" that accepts no higher authority than the individual believer. But for all its faults, the Baptist schism still holds the natural law to be true, just as we Catholics do — and for that loyalty they and we are deemed to be judgmental, inolerant, and unacceptable by the rest of the non-judgmental, omnitolerant, and all-accepting world.

As I said, Jerry Falwell and I differed on a great many things. But if holding to the tenets of orthodox Christan morality makes him (or anyone) a racist, sexist, homophobic bigot, then I ask you to please do me the great honor of thinking of me as a racist, sexist, homphobic bigot as well.

Prayers for the soul of Jerry Falwell, a poor sinner like the rest of us.

Thank you.

Re: In Memoriam

[kyburg.livejournal.com]

In all fairness, Bruce - in my heart of hearts, I truly believe the man wanted to be his press release. He truly believed he was doing the work of God - but I don't think I can recall many "men of God" who chased people AWAY from God much better than this guy did.

Celebrate? Dude. He's graduated from toilet-training; he's out of this vale of tears and strife and with his Maker. And he did it without a day of incapacity or pain - what's not to celebrate?

Re: In Memoriam

[the-paulr.livejournal.com]

Jerry Falwell used to like to slowly drive up behind people on the campus of Liberty University and startle them by honking at them. He thought that was funny.

He also liked to tell the story of the time his dad and some co-workers skinned a man's cat, cooked it and fed it to him. He thought that was funny.

I didn't dislike Falwell because he was a Christian. I disliked him because he was an ass.

Re: In Memoriam

[dudemungus.livejournal.com]

Jerry did some awesome things, like take the once obscure hobby of despising Christians and make it popular.

He made horrid hateful despicable people think they were pious, and honest decent people think they evil and twisted, He never in his entire life seemed to want to touch that passage about "judge not,lest blah blah blah" never once, That page must have been torn out of his bible.

Maybe America will become a place where somebody can claim to love Jesus again and not be seen immediately as an asshole. This was his legacy--to make Christian a dirty word. This was his accomplishment. This is what he is answering for right now.

Re: In Memoriam

[bitpig.livejournal.com]

Maybe America will become a place where somebody can claim to love Jesus again and not be seen immediately as an asshole. This was his legacy--to make Christian a dirty word.

"All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved." -- Matt 10:23

***

"Judge not, lest ye be judged" does not mean "do not believe in moral absolutes". It means "be preapred to be judged by the same standards you use in judging your fellow man." We are to be judges of actions, not men.

Jesus Himself judged many people's actions (Matthew 15:14; 23; John 8:44,55; 9:41, among others) and encouraged His followers to do the same (John 7:24, among others). For example, he called people names, including "snakes" and "sons of vipers" [Mt 23;33], which was an insult of the same class as calling someone a son of a bitch would be today. He also referred to people as "whitewashed tombs" in the same chapter, which is more or less tantamount to calling someone a sack of shit. He once sarcastically asked his followers “how much longer must I put up with you?” [Mark 9:19]. And let's not forget the time He literally whipped the asses of the moneychangers and animal-sellers in the Temple precincts (Matthew 21:12-13; Mark 11:15-18; John 2:13-22). Our Lord was a perfect man, but he was not what we would call a "nice" man. "Nice" means "jerking people off so you don't have to deal with them honestly".

Instead of being nice, Jesus was loving. In other words, He confronted people with their immoral actions, and challenged them to stop doing them. A perfect example of this is the well-known incident where Jesus was presented with a woman caught in the act of peddling her ass [John 8:1-11]. After pointing out that the woman's accusers were no saints themselves (i.e. they were all guilty of equal or worse sins), the Lord told the woman that she was forgiven — but that she'd better stop doing what she had been doing if she wanted to stay that way. "Go, and sin no more", He told her. Note that He didn't say ,"Hey, baby, it's okay to be a whore. That's the way God made you. Do what feels right and be nice and you'll be okay by Me." He said "go and sin no more". He made the point that being a whore is sinful and should be avoided. The same goes for adultery, fornication, masturbation, homosexuality, misuse of food and drink, lying, cheating, stealing, coveting, selfishness, dereliction of duty, uncharitable behavior, and all the other things we convince outselves are OK but know deep down aren't.

So those who believe in Jesus are seen immediately as assholes, are they? Good. The only true Christianity is the kind that pisses people off. It is intended to piss people off. Jesus was no call-me-mellow-yellow high-school guidance counselor trying to make sure everybody feeeeels good. The whole kum-bah-yah "hippie Jesus" thing was tired thirty years ago. Jesus did not come to bring peace on Earth. Instead, He came to rub people's faces in their own filthy behavior and challenge people to live contrary to their natural desires. "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth", He said; "I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn 'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.' A man's enemies will be the members of his own household." [Matthew 10:34-36]

PS - Sorry to ramble onabout this using your LJ, Ky. I will refrain from further comment here. Anyone wishing to discuss this further is invited to e-mail me (bchan@cheapdisposable.com) or visit me at bitpig.

Re: In Memoriam

[kyburg.livejournal.com]

I don't think Jesus said people would hate His followers because He could call a spade a spade, when it was necessary.

It was because He came to up-end the apple cart, so to speak - and force people to *gasp* love one another. And treat them as well. Get along and all that. Stop killing each other. Little things. (As well as set some standards for acceptable behavior - and tolerance. Love your enemy *gasp* and all that.)

There's a lot of discussion to get into - if one had the time and inclination - about what 'sin no more' actually meant in that context. Think a moment - a woman actually making her own living back in that day could have been considered sinful, in and of itself, if you talk to the right people for your interpretation. (Was selling something that belonged to her the sin (because a woman was considered chattel then, body and soul), or having sex at all in the first place, outside marriage/ownership?)

You're a girl, you get to figure that one out, in addition to the whole Savior thing. (And then you get told you don't "need" ordination because you can make babies. Come again?) "Sin no more" I think applied equally to everyone in the discussion, you want my opinion. Don't want it? Hey, it was free for the taking - but you don't have to.

The more Biblical discussions I get into, the more convinced I am that the years and years you can spend in divinity schools are actually needed to get all of it in (and out) of one's system. And in the end - you make up your own mind, based on what you know. Or what your peers convince you of, based on the arguments they can put forth.

Problem is, I'm a girl. Yanno. One key reason I'm not Catholic. I guess I'm fortunate - some religious faiths don't even grant me a soul!

And if Jesus ever said anything specific about homosexuality - I'm up to hear it. Jesus Christ, mind.

If I wanted a flame war, boy. I should write an entire post on this stuff. And what constitutes "this stuff?"

Not whether "true" (WTF) Christianity is intended to piss people off - if it's working.

"This stuff" = either one of us might be wrong. Maybe both of us. Maybe we're both correct, depending. Neither one of us has been given permission to judge - so what's the point?

That's not "trying to make sure everybody feeeeels good." That's being honest about your place in the order of things. Humble. That sort of thing.

If those who believe in Jesus are seen immediately as assholes (by people who don't know anything more about Christianity than that example), I can point directly to a few very visible people who have made their daily bread (and a whole lot more than they needed to live) preaching simple hatred, and calling it the word of the Lord - call it cause and effect. Call it what you will. I've seen it. And it's a sad, sad reality.

I see it much the same way as Cardinal Mahoney put it:

Before we are anything else -- any sex, ethnicity, nationality or citizenship -- we need to be the Body of Christ, sisters and brothers by our Baptism. Every one of us needs to know by heart some of the music, vocabulary, movement, and ways if thinking and feeling that are not of our own background. The larger society we are a part of needs this witness.

I do very well with Catholics, ironic as it may seem - because where it matters, is where we agree. All sin and fall short of the glory of God. And you know the rest.

Re: In Memoriam

[dudemungus.livejournal.com]

My point was/is not that I think Christians are assholes--I think a lot of assholes pretend to be Christian to compensate for some kind of percieved character flaw or to hide a bad case of self-loathing (male hookers and meth anyone?), or worse yet, to make a couple of bucks off the rubes. To a point, where the assholes trying to compensate and the assholes trying to make a couple bucks drown out the voices of actual Christians, who are in fact a majority. And this leaves the impression that all Christians are assholes and hypocrites, and that this is somehow imperative to christ's teachings.

But you may ask, "how does Tinky Winky fit into this?" Other than a shameless snakeoil salesman trying to attach his fading brand to the rising star fo the day, that is.

Re: In Memoriam

[(Anonymous)]

..."But if holding to the tenets of orthodox Christan morality makes him (or anyone) a racist, sexist, homophobic bigot, then I ask you to please do me the great honor of thinking of me as a racist, sexist, homphobic bigot as well..."

DONE!

Re: In Memoriam

[bitpig.livejournal.com]

Thank you. I accept with honor.

Re: In Memoriam

[redqueenofevil.livejournal.com]

I disagreed with Jerry Falwell about a great many things, but I believe he was a sincere Christian despite his errors. Yes, he was an Evangelical, but being part of a misguided Enlghtenment schism doesn't make a person evil — just misguided.

Tread lightly here, as there's some massive stereotyping in these words. I come from an evangelical family, and have worked with plenty of "Evangelical Christians," in my limited lifetime. And while I am not Christian, some of my closest friends could be lumped into this group. Many evangelicals do not hate. Many are quite progressive, actually. Many are not sexist, racist, or even homophobic. Not all, but quite a few. By indicating that "Evangelicals" are bad people, you risk insulting plenty of people who do love, who are compassionate, and who are quite unlike the Falwell/Robertson stereotype.


That said, many of the public figures like Falwell are considered hypocrites by plenty who have devoted their life to the same God that these figures claim to represent. The word has been misinterpreted to justify their means to make a profit, while the real do-gooders are not in it for the money. It's like saying that a figure like Britney Spears represents all pop music, and that her works are typical of all who perform in that style.

Parts of your response did show good points, but having come from the background you speak about, I felt the need to speak up.

[yasha-chan.livejournal.com]

He was a terrible, hateful person and I'm glad he's dead. Not because he's a Christian, but because he was a hatemonger, a bigot, a racist, someone who worked against women's rights, and a homophobe. He made a career off of stirring up people's prejudices and human failings.

Good Christian indeed.

[jobunches.livejournal.com]

Amen to that!

[redqueenofevil.livejournal.com]

I'd like to hope he's atoning. No explanation necessary. Just atonement for such hatred of humanity.