Why it's REALLY important to keep your ears open -

[kyburg]

Or in this case of this medium - keeping reading, and keep your mouth shut.

Because if you don't - and don't hear both sides - you're going to miss the solution.

Case in point:

yonmei made a one-click-does-all post this morning on a topic generating a very large word count this week: Sexism...from both sides of the gender divide. Two of my favorite journals went at it this week - with rather mixed results.

The players? theferrett and ginmar.

First up? theferrett - and Do I wanna bang you if you dress like that? Well, yes. Isn't that the idea? And why are you asking me, being female yourself, if I think the girl across the room is hot? And it's follow up, let's look at this a little closer, which contained the flash point moment of "Frankly, I think any woman who has to be begged fifteen times before she eventually accepts should be drug into the back alleyways and beaten, because her rampant need for a string of pleadings trains the wrong sort of men that no doesn't mean no. And then we should go beat up the men for good measure."

Which is where we pick up ginmar, which for all her rantiness, makes a very good point for clarity - and if you can get through the word count, you'll have a very good understanding of how our language enables a lot of gender-specific violence.

Wow. Just wow. Punish the woman for getting worn down by some persistant asshole?

By commenting on her genitalia you are reducing her to those parts, and doing it loudly and publicly.

Liberal sexism Can I get an AMEN here?

How about we just simplify things by blaming men for what they do?

Fan service. In case you didn't know what it looked like already. Fan service - and not to the female fans, of course.

But she was kind enough this morning to post the Cliff's Notes version this morning - Leading remarks and snappy comebacks - my favorites?

7. Men are so horny they can't help it.

I've noticed that they can help it after a couple warning shots.

8. Women don't have sex drives.

Maybe around you they don't.

But if that's not enough, even Sinfest got in on the action:

(Sure hope this works. If it doesn't, go over to sinfestfeed and add. You'll be glad you did.)

Okay. Let's look at this for a moment.

What do women think men want? Don't bother asking what women want from men. It's been done.

C'mon, you can do this one. What the typical woman thinks a men wants from her is sex. Everything else is secondary. I decided long ago this was unfair, and wouldn't get me what I wanted. So I don't participate.

First off, I want from men what I get from women. Acknowledgment that I'm alive, have a brain and needs of my own. We don't get past this part, there ain't nothing else you're going to get.

The little Sinfest cartoon also illustrates the next level - sex ain't all that, baby; but if it gets your attention, oh male of the species, expect to hear it a lot in conjunction with what really turns me on.

I think I envy women who can just go after the sex, enjoy it and walk away from it. I haven't had ANY first hand experience with anyone who has done that successfully, BTW.

My experience has been that the woman who pushes her sexuality at potential partners (without any discovery of who they're banging) is often motivated by the urge to control the other party by turning their genitals into a collar and leash. This is fine when it's play, but not when it's outside the bedroom. When you consider the previous paragraphs together with this one, you see something rather sinister emerge, don't you?

I grew up during the "sexual revolution," mind. My teens were in the years when the first editions of "Joy of Sex" were published, the huge divorce boom of the mid 70's was in full-swing and everyone was trading partners and having FUNFUNFUN.

The carnage was incredible. Keep in mind I spent a lot of time in emergency rooms because Mom was a nursing supervisor, and I heard a lot of stories. Even in a little town like Hemet, there are a lot of stories.

Put all this together, and you get virginity until 24. (And I married him at 25.)

Sex was always the icing. NEVER part of the "getting to know you." Conservative? Are you surprised? I did live with the fella for over a year in each case before marriage...and that involved sex. Yes, it did.

I want to know you aren't in it for my naughty bits. Not that I have a great set of them to begin with, but hey. I want to know you're interested in me - for me. Not how I perform on my back with my legs spread.

But I can see why some chick would ask Ferrett if he thought the other chick was hotter. What do women think men want?

I'm also complicated by the fact I prefer men to women, even for friends and co-workers. But I take care not to complicate things too much by being "too girly" - and yes, I laugh at the jokes. Because I understand the intent behind them. Ask the SCOTUS if intent matters, guys. It does. VERY. And yes, it's measurable. Go 'way.

I think both sexes have a way of maintaining the divide - men do it by making it hard to know them, and women do it by making it hard to be sexual with them. Do women want men to simply be sexual with them? No. Do men want women to find it hard to discover who they are and what they want? No.

That's why jokes about guys who lie about their sexual intentions are both funny and disgusting. And the ones about women who lie about their orgasms, ditto.

Now, tuck all this in the back of your head and keep your ears open this week.

And...don't you wish Nique had just said NO and been done with it?

(P.S. And to my non-hetero friends? Let fly.)

Comments

[ginmar.livejournal.com]

Hammering into our heads "you men suck! you subjugate women! you suck! you suck!" accomplishes precisely what

Whereas, of course, painting any feminist criticism of the dominant culture as man-hating bitchery is so productive. Care to try again?

Yes, an imbalance. I'm sorry if you don't like my choice of words, but that's what it is. An unreasonable, grossly disproportionate imbalance, yes

An imbalance is what you have when you don't get enough Vitamin C, okay? It's not an imbalance: it's systemized bigotry. Why do you want to minimize that?

I'm sorry if you don't like my choice of words, but that's what it is

Rediculous arrogance yet again. My experience must be defined by YOUR words. My life, my words. Not yours.

Reducing me to my skin colour and genitals

You just reduced male hatred of women into something that as malice-free as a nutrient deficiency.

Your words say far more about you than you should be comfortable with. You use words that constantly miminize the conscious aspects of male sexism, indeed male culpability, and you want me to accept your vocabulary for things that do not affect you---and which, once again, you wish to minimize.

Which avenue provides for the more stable and long-term solution?

Well, for starters, I reccomend men should sit down and shut up and let women say what they want without male editing.

[dirtynumbangel.livejournal.com]

*sigh* No. An imbalance is when things are not equal. Please look at a dictionary. Yes, there's bigotry. I'm not minimizing that. But it seems you're far more focused on assigning blame than allowing anyone to participate in a dialogue with you.


Well, for starters, I reccomend men should sit down and shut up and let women say what they want without male editing.

And women should be seen and not heard. Saying what you want is one thing. Marginalizing THE VERY FUCKING PEOPLE WHO AGREE WIUTH YOUR FUCKING GOALS YOU RELENTLESS FUCKING MORON is rather different.

This time, I am done. Apparently nobody knows anything except you, apparently nobody has been victimized except you (yeah, because a small feminine gay boy certainly doesn't get victimized by straight male culture), and apparently simply because I'm a man, I have to listen to your brainless diatribes, and your marginalization of my own experiences. Take a look in a mirror, babe, and actually be honest with yourself for a change.

[ginmar.livejournal.com]

I'm not minimizing that. But it seems you're far more focused on assigning blame than allowing anyone to participate in a dialogue with you.

Bullshit. You're so determiend to avoid listening to what I fucking say.....

Marginalizing THE VERY FUCKING PEOPLE WHO AGREE WIUTH YOUR FUCKING GOALS YOU RELENTLESS FUCKING MORON is rather different.

YOU're so fucking threatened by the notion you don't get to do the defining and shit that you reveal your true colors. Sorry, pal. You agree with me but you won't listen to me. Being told to let me lead makes you bitchy. Being told that I get to define my goddamned experience makes you hostile.

Yeah, thanks. Friends like you? I don't need.

[dirtynumbangel.livejournal.com]

Bitch please. Women like you, the feminist movement doesn't need. You're not interested in equality; like most fringe feminists you're interested simply in the exact same power dynamic we have now, with the genders reversed.

Now why don't you go back into the kitchen and bake me some muffins? Or at the very least, wash the sand out of your vagina.

[ginmar.livejournal.com]

Yeah, asshole, like any feminist guy would be so quick to take offense, find it so easy to resort to sexism.

[dirtynumbangel.livejournal.com]

Actually, it's more about resorting to something I know will piss you off. Seriously. Get a hose, wash the sand out of your vag, and go get laid. You'll find yourself a lot more relaxed and less bitchy.

[ginmar.livejournal.com]

Not proving my point about you, at all, are you?

All that Hallmark card stuff about working together and you sound like any other guy.

You know, try this on for size, see if it's okay.

Faggot. Homo. Child Molester. Queer. Ass ranger.

Feel better now? You're no bettter than any homophobe out there.

[dirtynumbangel.livejournal.com]

If you find people responding like that to you all the time, perhaps you should look at the common denominator int he interactions. Namely you, and yuour sand-in-the-vag attitude. If you were a boy, i'd be asking what crawled up your ass, so don't even start with me.

I'm all about togetherness when dealing with, say, intelligent people. You're clearly not in that group, so you can be safely ignored and disregarded. As you are, as of now. Goodby, have a nice bitter life alone.

[ginmar.livejournal.com]

More ad homs. Yes, sweetie, you're so special.

[dirtynumbangel.livejournal.com]

Ah, and as I attempted to point out, I'm not a feminist. I'm an equalist... that means if you're being an asshole, whether you're male or female doesn't matter. You want equality? That means you get called on your bullshit. You don't get a free pass.

[ginmar.livejournal.com]

Let's see...


NIgger. Coon. Big fat lips. White woman raper. And so forth.

Yeah, you're such a great guy.

[dirtynumbangel.livejournal.com]

I fail to see how any of that has any relevance here.

[ginmar.livejournal.com]

Those are the racial equivalents of waht you called me. I somehow find it hard to believe that any whtie person would be taken seriously after resorting to that sort of language, along with language about 'go eat some watermelon and chiltlins, you coon.'

Now, of course, you will protest that you are special and sensitive and what you meant is so much more important than what you said.

[dirtynumbangel.livejournal.com]

No, I'm done with you. You're simply not intelligent enough to bother with. Bye.

[ginmar.livejournal.com]

Aw, yes. Translation: "OMG, that puts things in a whole new light. I guess I'm not as speshul as I thought I was."

Go call somebody a nigger and see what they think of you.

[dirtynumbangel.livejournal.com]

And what was it that I called you that was even close to that?

Oh, right... Nothing!

You stupid, stupid person.

[ginmar.livejournal.com]

More ad hom, Mr. Sensitive LIberal Equalist Guy. Who just can't stand being told that women get to say what they want about what happens to them.

Let's see---go get laid. Wash the sand out of your vagina. Bitter. Etc., etc.,

Want some watermelon? Some fried chicken? Black people are so lazy and shiftless. They don't want to work. Welfare queen.

Money-grubbing jew. Drop a penny in front of the Jewboy. and so forth.

Yeah, what a sensitive guy.

[dirtynumbangel.livejournal.com]

I tell everyone who's in an obviously bitchy mood to go get laid, male or female.

Dand in your vag/what crawled up your ass? What's the difference? Ah, right, nothing. You just love these straw men, don't you, babe

Now kindly fuck off and die.

[ginmar.livejournal.com]

Hey, sweetie, you sounded almost heterosexual for aminute there.

Fact is, you said several extremely sexist things. And look at you run now!

At least back them up.

And sweetie? Nice try with the vagina/asshole comparison. Still no good. You preceded it with way too much sexism.

You've already lost. I'm just going to see how desperate you get.

[dirtynumbangel.livejournal.com]

And which sexist comments would those be, hmm? The deliberately offensive remark about baking me some muffins? Jesus.

I wish I had a worldview like yours. My life would be so much simpler seeing things in simple black and white, us and them. Unfortunately, I live in a place called reality, which NO LONGER HAS ANY FUCKING TIME FOR YOU, YOU UTTERLY BRAINLESS PIECE OF EXCREMENT. Or is it somehow different when you make homophobic comments, you fucking cunt?

Byebye, and you have a nice day. Preferably involving a bus hitting you.

[ginmar.livejournal.com]

Sweetie, you can't even see that telling a woman she's bitter, she needs to get sand out her vagain, she needs to get laid, are sexist. Yet the hterosexual remark made you get all up in arms.

I see we can hypocrite to your list of virtues.

Keep gong as long as you want, asshole.

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

Yeah... ginmar really isn't known for "listening to others" - when the "others" are sexist trolls.

But she does like batting sexist trolls about. And it's fun to watch.

[poetpaladin.livejournal.com]

Hey, why are you bringing up racist equivalents here?

Didn't you just tell me that I was bringing up a "straw man" argument for saying that holding all men responsible for what happens to women because men are in power is stupid because it's like holding all Whites responsible for what Whites in positions of power have done to minorities?

You are such a hypocrite. All you do is rant and rave and blame men for everything. You disgust those men and women who want to work together to solve violence against women. I've had one female friend literally write tell me that you are a "cunt" after reading our exchange in your journal, and another write to me telling me that "Somebody needs to buy that chick a vibrator and take the edge off" to indicate a few.

[ginmar.livejournal.com]

Because, sweetie, poeple who think that a woman's agner results from sexual frustration are ever-so-feminist.

Unnamd female friends, eh? Gee, would those be those little friends of your who descended on me en masse to gang flame me?

Didn't you just tell me that I was bringing up a "straw man" argument for saying that holding all men responsible for what happens to women because men are in power is stupid because it's like holding all Whites responsible for what Whites in positions of power have done to minorities

Who in the fuck talking to you? I haven't addressed you since I told you to get your head out of your precious sensitive ass the other day.

And racial equivalents? That's the point. You and your friends claim you're all sensitive and enlightened and shit---'poet paladin'-----yet you revert to type really fast when you don't get the response you want: 'OMG, I'm so grateful you're here to tell me how wrong I am and how your'e going to lead me and condescend to me! Despite the fact that you're so godammned stupid you can't see how holding women responsible for men's acts against htem is about as sexist as you can get."

Yeah, sweetie, I'm impressed.

[odanu.livejournal.com]

I have been holding my tongue, but this one got me.

You are such a hypocrite. All you do is rant and rave and blame men for everything. You disgust those men and women who want to work together to solve violence against women. I've had one female friend literally write tell me that you are a "cunt" after reading our exchange in your journal, and another write to me telling me that "Somebody needs to buy that chick a vibrator and take the edge off" to indicate a few.

Do you not see the rampant sexism in that paragraph? Let me point it out in small words.

1) Calling a woman a "cunt" whether said by a man or woman is equating her with her sexual organ and strongly implying that she is no more or less than that sexual organ. It is generally used when a woman gets "uppity" and says things that make men or women who have bought into some facet of patriarchy uncomfortable. Gin is not comfort food. She is an acquired taste. She sticks to one topic and doesn't allow other people to define it for her. Even when I disagree with her (which happens on a regular basis) I admire her for not backing down. That very quality of not backing down is what generally provokes outcries of "cunt". How dare a woman say that the fight for women's rights is and should be defined by women, and that men who profess to want to help should listen and be led by women in the fight. Would you presume to lecture your black friends or gay friends on how they should fight civil rights fights?

2) 'Somebody needs to buy that chick a vibrator and take the edge off' Again, do you not see the sexism? This implies that Gin is in a "bad mood" and probably "irrational" because she has no man in her life and that if she had an orgasm she would suddenly fall in line and stop making you feel uncomfortable. a) I'd bet money that Gin is able to handle her sexual needs perfectly well without anyone's help. b)by endorsing the opinions of the friends you are quoting, you are trying to bring the pressure of many to bear to get Gin "back in line".

Again, sometimes Gin fights fire with fire, and I don't always agree with her language or methods, but she does have an unerring ability to spot and draw out hypocrisy. Rather than continuing to flame her, if you are sincere about being a pro-feminist perhaps you should take a good look at the discomfort she aroused in you and ask yourself whether maybe you have some subconscious vestiges of sexist and racist attitudes that you need to deal with. Certainly some of your casual use of sexist language indicates it might be a possibility.