Why it's REALLY important to keep your ears open -

[kyburg]

Or in this case of this medium - keeping reading, and keep your mouth shut.

Because if you don't - and don't hear both sides - you're going to miss the solution.

Case in point:

yonmei made a one-click-does-all post this morning on a topic generating a very large word count this week: Sexism...from both sides of the gender divide. Two of my favorite journals went at it this week - with rather mixed results.

The players? theferrett and ginmar.

First up? theferrett - and Do I wanna bang you if you dress like that? Well, yes. Isn't that the idea? And why are you asking me, being female yourself, if I think the girl across the room is hot? And it's follow up, let's look at this a little closer, which contained the flash point moment of "Frankly, I think any woman who has to be begged fifteen times before she eventually accepts should be drug into the back alleyways and beaten, because her rampant need for a string of pleadings trains the wrong sort of men that no doesn't mean no. And then we should go beat up the men for good measure."

Which is where we pick up ginmar, which for all her rantiness, makes a very good point for clarity - and if you can get through the word count, you'll have a very good understanding of how our language enables a lot of gender-specific violence.

Wow. Just wow. Punish the woman for getting worn down by some persistant asshole?

By commenting on her genitalia you are reducing her to those parts, and doing it loudly and publicly.

Liberal sexism Can I get an AMEN here?

How about we just simplify things by blaming men for what they do?

Fan service. In case you didn't know what it looked like already. Fan service - and not to the female fans, of course.

But she was kind enough this morning to post the Cliff's Notes version this morning - Leading remarks and snappy comebacks - my favorites?

7. Men are so horny they can't help it.

I've noticed that they can help it after a couple warning shots.

8. Women don't have sex drives.

Maybe around you they don't.

But if that's not enough, even Sinfest got in on the action:

(Sure hope this works. If it doesn't, go over to sinfestfeed and add. You'll be glad you did.)

Okay. Let's look at this for a moment.

What do women think men want? Don't bother asking what women want from men. It's been done.

C'mon, you can do this one. What the typical woman thinks a men wants from her is sex. Everything else is secondary. I decided long ago this was unfair, and wouldn't get me what I wanted. So I don't participate.

First off, I want from men what I get from women. Acknowledgment that I'm alive, have a brain and needs of my own. We don't get past this part, there ain't nothing else you're going to get.

The little Sinfest cartoon also illustrates the next level - sex ain't all that, baby; but if it gets your attention, oh male of the species, expect to hear it a lot in conjunction with what really turns me on.

I think I envy women who can just go after the sex, enjoy it and walk away from it. I haven't had ANY first hand experience with anyone who has done that successfully, BTW.

My experience has been that the woman who pushes her sexuality at potential partners (without any discovery of who they're banging) is often motivated by the urge to control the other party by turning their genitals into a collar and leash. This is fine when it's play, but not when it's outside the bedroom. When you consider the previous paragraphs together with this one, you see something rather sinister emerge, don't you?

I grew up during the "sexual revolution," mind. My teens were in the years when the first editions of "Joy of Sex" were published, the huge divorce boom of the mid 70's was in full-swing and everyone was trading partners and having FUNFUNFUN.

The carnage was incredible. Keep in mind I spent a lot of time in emergency rooms because Mom was a nursing supervisor, and I heard a lot of stories. Even in a little town like Hemet, there are a lot of stories.

Put all this together, and you get virginity until 24. (And I married him at 25.)

Sex was always the icing. NEVER part of the "getting to know you." Conservative? Are you surprised? I did live with the fella for over a year in each case before marriage...and that involved sex. Yes, it did.

I want to know you aren't in it for my naughty bits. Not that I have a great set of them to begin with, but hey. I want to know you're interested in me - for me. Not how I perform on my back with my legs spread.

But I can see why some chick would ask Ferrett if he thought the other chick was hotter. What do women think men want?

I'm also complicated by the fact I prefer men to women, even for friends and co-workers. But I take care not to complicate things too much by being "too girly" - and yes, I laugh at the jokes. Because I understand the intent behind them. Ask the SCOTUS if intent matters, guys. It does. VERY. And yes, it's measurable. Go 'way.

I think both sexes have a way of maintaining the divide - men do it by making it hard to know them, and women do it by making it hard to be sexual with them. Do women want men to simply be sexual with them? No. Do men want women to find it hard to discover who they are and what they want? No.

That's why jokes about guys who lie about their sexual intentions are both funny and disgusting. And the ones about women who lie about their orgasms, ditto.

Now, tuck all this in the back of your head and keep your ears open this week.

And...don't you wish Nique had just said NO and been done with it?

(P.S. And to my non-hetero friends? Let fly.)

Comments

I'd just add...

[scarcrest.livejournal.com]

That gender distinctions are generalizations that don't apply in every case. It seems that almost every woman I've ever fallen for fit the "male" pattern of being hard to get to know -- to the point where I've referred to a couple of them as glaciers, because things moved so slowly.

It could be a case of "They're just like that with you." But in a few cases, no, I don't think so. They were as aloof and emotionally flat as any guy in a stereotypical joke.

And not every guy is hard-wired to want sex without love, either. The one time I was able to have that arrangement (mostly), I felt cheapened by it.

Re: I'd just add...

[kyburg.livejournal.com]

I'd have to say I fall into that category as well - a lot of my responses are not the "typical" female's. For example, if Jim and I are watching television, he's far more likely to tear up over a sad story than I am. Me, I'm reaching for the phone - but I've always been that way.

I'd also have to say that I'm very eager to let people get to know me - when I'm motivated. Hm. I ought to let Jim answer that one.

[(Anonymous)]

http://www.livejournal.com/users/poetpaladin/485892.html

[poetpaladin.livejournal.com]

(Sorry about the anonymous. I was using another browser.)

Here you go:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/poetpaladin/485892.html

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

Friends-locked.

[kyburg.livejournal.com]

Hon, it's my honest opinion that everyone is expected to correct bad behavior. And equally responsible for doing so.

[ginmar.livejournal.com]

I just had someone read that and then ask, straight-faced--it's your poster down below here---what women were doing to alter men's behavior. All very sensitively and so on. I got hte whole, "Not All Men Are Like That" and then how both men and women live in society and should fight to change sexism, even though we don't 'both' have---screw it, I'm not arguing about the existance of sexism. But that was what the post was about. It was about telling women that they had to control men. It was about letting men off scott free, and I was supposed to take Mr. Sensitive by the hand after he read the post and asked the same question as theferrett and devote a great deal of time and handholding while he said that he wasn't responsible just because he had a penis.

It was just unbelieveable.

[kyburg.livejournal.com]

I wonder what the word it is that relates reading - and getting it - like "listen" relates to "hear." Comprehension misses the mark.

Listen - and really understand what's being said. Words matter.

But, in defense? We do two dumb things to men every time someone does something dumb to women. Consider for a moment - men die earlier, they kill themselves at a higher rate and overall, still are over-represented in every crime statistic you'd care to name.

And it's *shrug* all over. Consider being a thinking creature - and male - and try to figure out your place in all this. "I've got a penis - but I didn't do all that crap!" You can't be surprised. Sooner or later, they get bagged by it. Try to find other men who agree with not being "like that?" C'mon. You've heard what they get called for that. The nice one was pussies, last time I checked.

I can tell you what anyone can do. Don't participate in it. Don't perpetuate it. Don't generalize -

You've done a very nice job in outlining the language - and pointing up just how easy it is to discount, discredit and literally, depersonalize women. The next trick?

Do the same thing for the men. I'd be interested in seeing what you come up with.

[dwinghy.livejournal.com]

It's hilarious to me how people sometimes complicate things so unnecessarily. Let's just suppose-- for argument's sake, though it's a scenario I doubt really occurs all that often in reality-- that a woman's lips say no-no but her eyes say yes-yes. Let's just take that scenario at face value for a moment. If a man, when confronted with a woman saying no-no, ACTUALLY TOOK HER STATEMENT AT FACE VALUE and said, "oh, okay," and let her alone, wouldn't this hypothetical woman who-says-no-but-means-yes look at what just happened and think, "next time I mean yes-yes I'll say yes-yes and not just with my eyes"? Yes, of course she would. But of course this woman is just hypothetical, because generally when a woman says no she actually really and truly means no and isn't playing some craaaaaaazy mind game just to get some poor, suffering, mind-reading man's knickers in a twist.
Sorry to be so long winded just to make a point that's been made many times before, but I am just flabbergasted at what a clueless dickwad theferret is. they wanted men to flirt with them, but they wanted men to remain in some strange, cartoon-like asexual zone until they were ready to have sex. OH NOES THE MAN MAY HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL A WOMAN IS READY TO HAVE SEX BEFORE THEY CAN HAVE SEX. Because apparently any time you're NOT having sex you're in some "strange, cartoon-like asexual zone". Whatever.
I'm just glad I'm old and experienced enough at this point to know not all men have such an overblown sense of entitlement.

[joggingguy.livejournal.com]

I think you and I were brother and sister in another life or something *hugs you*

First off, I want from men what I get from women. Acknowledgment that I'm alive, have a brain and needs of my own. We don't get past this part, there ain't nothing else you're going to get.

The little Sinfest cartoon also illustrates the next level - sex ain't all that, baby; but if it gets your attention, oh male of the species, expect to hear it a lot in conjunction with what really turns me on.

I think I envy women who can just go after the sex, enjoy it and walk away from it. I haven't had ANY first hand experience with anyone who has done that successfully, BTW.

Personally, I've never gone out with a woman for sex alone. I just can't do it. The woman has to be valuable to me somehow, and to do that, you have to get to know them first. Yeah, it's slow, and yeah, you don't get as many dates, and yeah, some women don't want to wait, etc. I'm just not in a hurry.

I grew up during the "sexual revolution," mind. My teens were in the years when the first editions of "Joy of Sex" were published, the huge divorce boom of the mid 70's was in full-swing and everyone was trading partners and having FUNFUNFUN.

I have that book. I bought it when I was around 30 because I was curious what the big deal was back then. I think it was published just to make the statement that we can publish something like that now with pictures and get away with it.

Put all this together, and you get virginity until 24. (And I married him at 25.)

Sex was always the icing. NEVER part of the "getting to know you." Conservative? Are you surprised? I did live with the fella for over a year in each case before marriage...and that involved sex. Yes, it did.

Me too. I was a virgin until I was 20. Married her at 21. Got divorced when she had an affair, but that's another story.

Girls in school didn't want what I wanted or were in a hurry. It was either a) let's fuck and see if I fall in love with you and want to keep you or b) let's fuck because you're the one I want today or c) I just want to be friends with you right now (and from now on). I was so busy with stuff during and after school that it didn't matter much, but it was sometimes lonely because it seemed like no one wanted to get to know you and thought you were weird for wanting to. It was all about being pretty, popular, etc.

I think both sexes have a way of maintaining the divide - men do it by making it hard to know them, and women do it by making it hard to be sexual with them. Do women want men to simply be sexual with them? No. Do men want women to find it hard to discover who they are and what they want? No.

Yeah, no kidding. There is a certain amount of "testing" that both sexes do to see what really makes the other one tick. My last girlfriend didn't know what she really wanted, so the "testing" and emotional rollercoaster went on way too long. It finally became clear that I was never going to be good enough and left. I was just there to keep her from being lonely.

Seriously?

[vertamae.livejournal.com]

I think it was published just to make the statement that we can publish something like that now with pictures and get away with it.

I believe Kinsey, et al, and especially Alex Comfort, wanted to EDUCATE, and they did a fine job. I've met people who've never picked up a book on sex to read about our bodies and how they work, and frankly I'm surprised. People will look at porn online before they'll read how to give the best blow job, or how to locate a clitoris and bring a woman to near instant orgasm.

If more people started out with books like Joy of Sex we'd be a lot happier as a culture, maybe even less prone to so much violence. More reproductive education would be in order too, as it desperately is now. One cannot be TOO educated. :)

[kyburg.livejournal.com]

I still think you'd make a really good neighbor. :)

Boy, it's really hard to think what education must have been like without Joy of Sex and Our Bodies, Our Selves. Talk about ignorance....

Big deal? Nah. I understand that book now comes in every "flavor" sex comes in - and I'd have to admit, I'm curious. The original stands up so well with its caring, tolerant, gentle approach - I wonder how it treats other subjects?

[turandot.livejournal.com]

I'm also complicated by the fact I prefer men to women, even for friends and co-workers. But I take care not to complicate things too much by being "too girly" - and yes, I laugh at the jokes. Because I understand the intent behind them.

Heh. I'm with you there. I went through a long phase where it was just akward to have women as friends. I haven't had a close friend who's a woman since my freshman year in college. Heck, My husband was a friend before he became my boyfriend, and he's pretty much as close as a best friend I have.

The thing about men, the way you get them to be decent to other women, in my experience, is not to harrass them for jokes or innuendos, or how they think or talk about women, but to laugh at what they're saying and sneak a moment in that gently educates them. Call it the "yeah that might be funny, but wouldn't it bother you if someone talked about your sister like that?" aside.

And you're right, men make it harder to know them as friends, both to other men and especially to women, who assume that different things are involved in friendship than men. You're not gonna get "omg, I feel like crap today" newsflashes. If a guy friend has had a shitty day, you're gonna be able to know from the long silences rather than a never ending stream of words, and asking him to talk about it is pretty much the best way to ensure he won't talk to you for the rest of the day. Most guys, my husband often has to explain to me, like solving their problems on their own, and while they appreciate that people are there to talk to them and help them, that's usually their last resort.

[http://users.livejournal.com/little_e_/]

huh. the men you know are awfully different from the ones i know. i get "omg i feel like crap today" newsflashes all the fucking time--usually followed by a weather report from lahore or houston.

[neintales.livejournal.com]

Not quite sure what I should let fly.. heh..

But.. ginvar has summed up a lot of my thoughts very well.

I absolutely HATE it when anyone expects there to be 'mind games' involved. Man or woman. "Guys are stupid and girls are insane" is often a joking reason I give as to my single, almost outright asexual as opposed to bisexual status.. but it's a joke.

I have to admit, I tend to make comments to friends about various hot people. I loove seeing sexy men and women (definitions of sexy may vary!) but I would never ever assume that some man or woman is DRESSING LIKE THAT FOR ME. No matter how attractive I find it, it doesn't mean it's so that I should go up and make a comment or hit on them.

IF I decide "wow.. I gotta try and hook up with that person".. my way to do it? Walk up to them, maybe compliment them, or find something to make conversation about.. TALK to them a while.

Funnily enough, almost every time this has happened, I've learned via the conversation that nope.. wouldn't wanna date them. But sometimes I've made good friends.

And the few I've wanted to date in the end? Well, generally, I've been shot down. Is it their fault somehow? Nope. Did I bug them? Nope. Do I hate them or myself? Negatory. Because not everyone in the world is here for me to date/have sex with!

And if I ever dress up.. hey, I don't mind being noticed, but I don't want empty/libido-fueled compliments/come-ons/harrassment/stares. And yes.. in my opinion.. there is a VERY big difference between being noticed and being harrassed- and note that while I said I don't mind being noticed.. I didn't say "I'm doing it TO be noticed."

I'm doing it because I love how I look when I'm dressed up and it makes me feel GOOD.

I don't care if it is a girl or a guy.. sex shouldn't be used as a weapon. People aren't to be confronted like they are objects, and if someone doesn't want to go out with you or have sex with you- they are not *in the wrong* and they are not *leading you on*.

Someone says no? Get over it, you aren't coming across as what they want, if they are even wanting someone/something, which you can't assume they are.

If you seriously think they're wanting something or someone? And think it should be a slice of you they are after?

Maybe you should think again.

[http://users.livejournal.com/little_e_/]

"I think both sexes have a way of maintaining the divide - men do it by making it hard to know them, and women do it by making it hard to be sexual with them. Do women want men to simply be sexual with them? No. Do men want women to find it hard to discover who they are and what they want? No."

maybe it's just that i live in a strange environment (which, admitadly, i do), but this isn't how men and women seem to act around here. some of my male friends update me on their personal lives so often that 'just a bit, Foo just crashed, i need to go comfort him,' is a normal statement around here. i get fewer angsty emails from my female friends, but i think this is in part because i have fewer female friends.

as for women, i'm not sure i really even understand what you mean by making it hard to be sexual with men. do you mean that women aren't simply willing to fuck every man she meets at the drop of a hat? most men i know aren't interested in that, either.

but like i said, i have a reaaaally tiny group of people i know well, and we are very off the norm.

[vertamae.livejournal.com]

I think I envy women who can just go after the sex, enjoy it and walk away from it. I haven't had ANY first hand experience with anyone who has done that successfully, BTW.

My last one-night-stand, January '04, went swimmingly!

I had my first sex at age 14, read that same first edition of Joy of Sex, cover to cover, at age 18, so I really knew what I was doing, and kept going from there, with Our Bodies, Our Selves.

I want to know you aren't in it for my naughty bits. Not that I have a great set of them to begin with, but hey. I want to know you're interested in me - for me. Not how I perform on my back with my legs spread.

Ah, but what about on top and backwards? :))

Sex is a beautiful thing, and I see both sides to this argument, even tend to side more with the sexist men, than with the feminist women, though I consider myself a feminist. I've come across too many feminists who were abused as children or teenagers, who hate men in general, and who see feminism as some sort of revenge, which is a huge turnoff to me.

And, as an enlightened woman who came of age just post-Sexual Revolution, I am appalled at the fashions of today. Why do young women wear that crap? They all need to go home, right now, and put some CLOTHES on! ;)

[moropus.livejournal.com]

I came of age late 70s-early 80s and I'm not happy with the way young women display their bodies today, either. I think current fashions make them look like slabs of meat in a butcher shop. If you display a thing, people will look at it. Recently, I witnessed a female with a plunging neckline that came within a few inches of her waist go off on a male for looking. WTF? She stuck them out there, he looked. He didn't drool, ogle, come on to her, or comment. He looked. If you don't want people to look at them, you shouldn't display them like that.

I've had one night stands, and I liked them just fine. I own plunging necklines and I think there is a time and a place for them. When I wrap my ass in a lycra skirt that is barely long enough to cover it and wear a neckline that comes close to my waist, I'm not offended when men look. I'd be offended if they didn't look.

[dirtynumbangel.livejournal.com]

You had me until you started quoting ginmar. She is, to be charitable, not terribly interested in actually listening to others.

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

I've never found that to be the case.

Of course, she's renowned for having no time for sexist trolls. She is (to be admiring) not terribly interested in letting sexist trolls go on and on and on at her.

As a result, an awful lot of sexist trolls on livejournal complain that she's not terribly interested in listening to them. Perhaps you've been listening to one or more of them?

(frozen)

[kyburg.livejournal.com]

I might also point out that you were the one to pick a fight with someone in my journal -

Cool it.

(frozen)

[dirtynumbangel.livejournal.com]

Take a look at the last time I bothered responding to the morons. It's been cooled.

[machineplay.livejournal.com]

I don't know if anyone else mentioned this, but theferrett's police officer uniform analogy disturbed me on such a deep level that anything else he has to say is simply null and void.

A police officer took an oath to serve and protect when he got that uniform. I did not take any oath to be sexually available when I got my vagina. That any person could draw a parallel between impersonating a public servant and dressing attractively is beyond me.

[dandelion-diva.livejournal.com]

Best point *ever*. Thank you for making it. :)

Gessi

[ginmar.livejournal.com]

A police officer is obligated by his responsibilities to serve the public. Evidently merely having a vagina requires one to serve the public as well.

Yeah, that creeped me out, too.