Why it's REALLY important to keep your ears open -

[kyburg]

Or in this case of this medium - keeping reading, and keep your mouth shut.

Because if you don't - and don't hear both sides - you're going to miss the solution.

Case in point:

yonmei made a one-click-does-all post this morning on a topic generating a very large word count this week: Sexism...from both sides of the gender divide. Two of my favorite journals went at it this week - with rather mixed results.

The players? theferrett and ginmar.

First up? theferrett - and Do I wanna bang you if you dress like that? Well, yes. Isn't that the idea? And why are you asking me, being female yourself, if I think the girl across the room is hot? And it's follow up, let's look at this a little closer, which contained the flash point moment of "Frankly, I think any woman who has to be begged fifteen times before she eventually accepts should be drug into the back alleyways and beaten, because her rampant need for a string of pleadings trains the wrong sort of men that no doesn't mean no. And then we should go beat up the men for good measure."

Which is where we pick up ginmar, which for all her rantiness, makes a very good point for clarity - and if you can get through the word count, you'll have a very good understanding of how our language enables a lot of gender-specific violence.

Wow. Just wow. Punish the woman for getting worn down by some persistant asshole?

By commenting on her genitalia you are reducing her to those parts, and doing it loudly and publicly.

Liberal sexism Can I get an AMEN here?

How about we just simplify things by blaming men for what they do?

Fan service. In case you didn't know what it looked like already. Fan service - and not to the female fans, of course.

But she was kind enough this morning to post the Cliff's Notes version this morning - Leading remarks and snappy comebacks - my favorites?

7. Men are so horny they can't help it.

I've noticed that they can help it after a couple warning shots.

8. Women don't have sex drives.

Maybe around you they don't.

But if that's not enough, even Sinfest got in on the action:

(Sure hope this works. If it doesn't, go over to sinfestfeed and add. You'll be glad you did.)

Okay. Let's look at this for a moment.

What do women think men want? Don't bother asking what women want from men. It's been done.

C'mon, you can do this one. What the typical woman thinks a men wants from her is sex. Everything else is secondary. I decided long ago this was unfair, and wouldn't get me what I wanted. So I don't participate.

First off, I want from men what I get from women. Acknowledgment that I'm alive, have a brain and needs of my own. We don't get past this part, there ain't nothing else you're going to get.

The little Sinfest cartoon also illustrates the next level - sex ain't all that, baby; but if it gets your attention, oh male of the species, expect to hear it a lot in conjunction with what really turns me on.

I think I envy women who can just go after the sex, enjoy it and walk away from it. I haven't had ANY first hand experience with anyone who has done that successfully, BTW.

My experience has been that the woman who pushes her sexuality at potential partners (without any discovery of who they're banging) is often motivated by the urge to control the other party by turning their genitals into a collar and leash. This is fine when it's play, but not when it's outside the bedroom. When you consider the previous paragraphs together with this one, you see something rather sinister emerge, don't you?

I grew up during the "sexual revolution," mind. My teens were in the years when the first editions of "Joy of Sex" were published, the huge divorce boom of the mid 70's was in full-swing and everyone was trading partners and having FUNFUNFUN.

The carnage was incredible. Keep in mind I spent a lot of time in emergency rooms because Mom was a nursing supervisor, and I heard a lot of stories. Even in a little town like Hemet, there are a lot of stories.

Put all this together, and you get virginity until 24. (And I married him at 25.)

Sex was always the icing. NEVER part of the "getting to know you." Conservative? Are you surprised? I did live with the fella for over a year in each case before marriage...and that involved sex. Yes, it did.

I want to know you aren't in it for my naughty bits. Not that I have a great set of them to begin with, but hey. I want to know you're interested in me - for me. Not how I perform on my back with my legs spread.

But I can see why some chick would ask Ferrett if he thought the other chick was hotter. What do women think men want?

I'm also complicated by the fact I prefer men to women, even for friends and co-workers. But I take care not to complicate things too much by being "too girly" - and yes, I laugh at the jokes. Because I understand the intent behind them. Ask the SCOTUS if intent matters, guys. It does. VERY. And yes, it's measurable. Go 'way.

I think both sexes have a way of maintaining the divide - men do it by making it hard to know them, and women do it by making it hard to be sexual with them. Do women want men to simply be sexual with them? No. Do men want women to find it hard to discover who they are and what they want? No.

That's why jokes about guys who lie about their sexual intentions are both funny and disgusting. And the ones about women who lie about their orgasms, ditto.

Now, tuck all this in the back of your head and keep your ears open this week.

And...don't you wish Nique had just said NO and been done with it?

(P.S. And to my non-hetero friends? Let fly.)

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

I was just pointing out that, holding men collectively responsible for violence some men perpetuate against women is just as bad as holding a woman responsible for what happens to her. Holding all men responsible is like holding all Whites responsible for past slavery.

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

Having read theferrett's little riff, I think that when a man starts claiming that all women (no men) are responsible for stopping violence against women, or even harassment, by behaving in such a way as not to provoke certain kinds of male behaviour, it's perfectly appropriate to point out that while theferrett may prefer to abrograte responsibility for his behavior and leave it up to "women" to behave well so as not to provoke him, in fact the only people who can change "male behaviour" are... men. Men can decide that they won't behave violently towards women. Or that they won't harass women.

And they can also decide that, rather than leaning back with a joky smile and thinking it's rather amusing when they see men harassing women, they can speak out against it.

And they can also decide that rather than complaining about women who complain about male behaviour, they too will complain about the men who do these things - who harass women, who commit violence against women, and who joke about it.

You could have decided to do all these things, but you opted for complaining about women, instead.

[poetpaladin.livejournal.com]

No, I complained about one woman.

I consider it a collective responsibility (including mine, but not solely mine nor my gender's) to do something about it. She started telling me it was a male responsibility because men hold the majority positions of power and law enforcement and men do the raping. Which made me point out that it'd be the same as holding Whites collectively responsible for discrimination/violence against minorities?

[ginmar.livejournal.com]

You complained about one woman?

Yeah, you read a post about blaming women, then you blamed women. And you couldn't understand why I didn't take your word for it that you were so sensitive and helpful. And when you didn't get your way, YOU whipped out the sexist shit, just like all your little buddies, who showed up en masse with more sexist slurs.

Here's a tip, sweetie: If you don't get your way from a way, and you feel compelled to tell her to get laid and wash the sand out of her cunt, or if you call her a cunt, then it's been rather conclusively proven that your sensitivity is a thin shell over more of the same sexist bile that I've been fighting every day. You're all veneer, no substance. Why you think you want to be a feminist I'll be damned if I know. It's not glamourous, and you're so easily aroused to hostility---and so clueless besides----that you'd provide no help besides.

My post: asshole says women are responsible for men's behavior.

You: But they are! What are you gong to do about it!

Me: Oh for fuck's sake.

YOu: WAH: Bitch! GEt laid! You're mean and eivl and I didn't want to be afeminist if you won't listen to me and enable my sensitivity and, oh, yeah, let me whine adn say the EXACT SAME SEXIST THINGS AS ANY OLD SEXIST ASSHOLE! It's different because I'm me! lallalallalalalalala

[poetpaladin.livejournal.com]

You putting words in my mouth tells everyone exactly why it's pointless to argue with you.

[ginmar.livejournal.com]

Look, Lady...

Nobody who's sexist can be aroused to sexism when they're disagreed with. You started referring to my gender as soon as you got contradicted.

Yeah, that was sensitive all right.

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

Amazing. He gets it. But thinks it's an excuse to be as racist as he is sexist.

*waves paw* Bah.

[poetpaladin.livejournal.com]

Hey, I think it's wrong to blame all Whites for how some of them discriminate against minorities. What's racist about that?

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

 

[ginmar.livejournal.com]

Then let's make blacks solely responsible for fighting racism, shall we? That's what Ferrret wants. And for good measure, let's let white guys define what they do. After all, they might get threatened if it's any other way.

I hold the people in power for misusing that power. Sexism wouldn't be the problem it is were it not for the blind men who spend all their time complaining about women's responses to sexism rather than the sexism that provokes them. Horrifically sexist men are a minority, yet there is a substantial group of passives who stand by and find their voice only when a woman responding to some sexist slur makes them uncomfortable.

[poetpaladin.livejournal.com]

Please do not reply to anything I write to someone else, since you have already banned me from commenting in your journal and you obviously do not want me to talk to you anymore.

[ginmar.livejournal.com]

I'll reply to whomever I want. You could not control me in my LJ, nad now you want to control me here? If that doesn't illustrate your sense of entitlement I don't know what does.