Why it's REALLY important to keep your ears open -

[kyburg]

Or in this case of this medium - keeping reading, and keep your mouth shut.

Because if you don't - and don't hear both sides - you're going to miss the solution.

Case in point:

yonmei made a one-click-does-all post this morning on a topic generating a very large word count this week: Sexism...from both sides of the gender divide. Two of my favorite journals went at it this week - with rather mixed results.

The players? theferrett and ginmar.

First up? theferrett - and Do I wanna bang you if you dress like that? Well, yes. Isn't that the idea? And why are you asking me, being female yourself, if I think the girl across the room is hot? And it's follow up, let's look at this a little closer, which contained the flash point moment of "Frankly, I think any woman who has to be begged fifteen times before she eventually accepts should be drug into the back alleyways and beaten, because her rampant need for a string of pleadings trains the wrong sort of men that no doesn't mean no. And then we should go beat up the men for good measure."

Which is where we pick up ginmar, which for all her rantiness, makes a very good point for clarity - and if you can get through the word count, you'll have a very good understanding of how our language enables a lot of gender-specific violence.

Wow. Just wow. Punish the woman for getting worn down by some persistant asshole?

By commenting on her genitalia you are reducing her to those parts, and doing it loudly and publicly.

Liberal sexism Can I get an AMEN here?

How about we just simplify things by blaming men for what they do?

Fan service. In case you didn't know what it looked like already. Fan service - and not to the female fans, of course.

But she was kind enough this morning to post the Cliff's Notes version this morning - Leading remarks and snappy comebacks - my favorites?

7. Men are so horny they can't help it.

I've noticed that they can help it after a couple warning shots.

8. Women don't have sex drives.

Maybe around you they don't.

But if that's not enough, even Sinfest got in on the action:

(Sure hope this works. If it doesn't, go over to sinfestfeed and add. You'll be glad you did.)

Okay. Let's look at this for a moment.

What do women think men want? Don't bother asking what women want from men. It's been done.

C'mon, you can do this one. What the typical woman thinks a men wants from her is sex. Everything else is secondary. I decided long ago this was unfair, and wouldn't get me what I wanted. So I don't participate.

First off, I want from men what I get from women. Acknowledgment that I'm alive, have a brain and needs of my own. We don't get past this part, there ain't nothing else you're going to get.

The little Sinfest cartoon also illustrates the next level - sex ain't all that, baby; but if it gets your attention, oh male of the species, expect to hear it a lot in conjunction with what really turns me on.

I think I envy women who can just go after the sex, enjoy it and walk away from it. I haven't had ANY first hand experience with anyone who has done that successfully, BTW.

My experience has been that the woman who pushes her sexuality at potential partners (without any discovery of who they're banging) is often motivated by the urge to control the other party by turning their genitals into a collar and leash. This is fine when it's play, but not when it's outside the bedroom. When you consider the previous paragraphs together with this one, you see something rather sinister emerge, don't you?

I grew up during the "sexual revolution," mind. My teens were in the years when the first editions of "Joy of Sex" were published, the huge divorce boom of the mid 70's was in full-swing and everyone was trading partners and having FUNFUNFUN.

The carnage was incredible. Keep in mind I spent a lot of time in emergency rooms because Mom was a nursing supervisor, and I heard a lot of stories. Even in a little town like Hemet, there are a lot of stories.

Put all this together, and you get virginity until 24. (And I married him at 25.)

Sex was always the icing. NEVER part of the "getting to know you." Conservative? Are you surprised? I did live with the fella for over a year in each case before marriage...and that involved sex. Yes, it did.

I want to know you aren't in it for my naughty bits. Not that I have a great set of them to begin with, but hey. I want to know you're interested in me - for me. Not how I perform on my back with my legs spread.

But I can see why some chick would ask Ferrett if he thought the other chick was hotter. What do women think men want?

I'm also complicated by the fact I prefer men to women, even for friends and co-workers. But I take care not to complicate things too much by being "too girly" - and yes, I laugh at the jokes. Because I understand the intent behind them. Ask the SCOTUS if intent matters, guys. It does. VERY. And yes, it's measurable. Go 'way.

I think both sexes have a way of maintaining the divide - men do it by making it hard to know them, and women do it by making it hard to be sexual with them. Do women want men to simply be sexual with them? No. Do men want women to find it hard to discover who they are and what they want? No.

That's why jokes about guys who lie about their sexual intentions are both funny and disgusting. And the ones about women who lie about their orgasms, ditto.

Now, tuck all this in the back of your head and keep your ears open this week.

And...don't you wish Nique had just said NO and been done with it?

(P.S. And to my non-hetero friends? Let fly.)

Comments

[dirtynumbangel.livejournal.com]

Ah, another dismissive feminist. it must be so nice to be so assured of your superiority, and the perfection of your worldview. That's nothing like the patriarchal models you rail against, not at all.

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

*waves paw*

[odanu.livejournal.com]

You do realize that this comment is as dismissive as you are accusing yonmei of being, right? Perhaps there is a middle ground.

[dirtynumbangel.livejournal.com]

Is it really? I, apparently, am not allowed to have any opinions on sexism or the ending thereof, unless they've been sanctioned by yonmei or ginmar. Go take a look at ginmar's journal.. she was dismissive of me from the start, put words in my mouth, deliberatley misinterpreted every single thing I had to say, and yonmei is, frankly, no better. Your point is what, exactly?

[odanu.livejournal.com]

My point is that if you continue to act sexist, by using sexist language and by being dismissive of people who call you on it, you will not be improving your case for being perceived as a pro-feminist. Calling yourself pro-feminist does not make you so. Acting in such a way that you respect women as people and don't use their sex against them when they say something you disagree with does.

My favorite definition of feminism is "Feminism is the radical notion that women are people" (Cheris Kramerae). Breaking it down, it addresses three things:
1) The idea that women are people and not things (objects) is radical and not a mainstream idea.

2) The idea that women are people is denigrated as a "notion" and not an idea by those who wish to continue marginalizing women.

3) Women are not "people, too", they are "people". Period.

You have demonstrated through your posts here that you feel free to objectify and denigrate women who disagree with you, and dismiss their views as notions even about the women's movement, which is a movement by and for women and defined by women.

Gin didn't misinterpret you. She poked at your veneer to see what was under it, and found a hypocrite. She's good at that. I have seen her mistakenly call a person sexist when I knew better, and called her on it. I have no reason to believe she is mistaken in this case.

[dirtynumbangel.livejournal.com]

You're making the same mistake that a lot of feminists (or gay activists, or indeed, any activist of your choice) make when one of their number is insulted: you seem to think that by insulting one, I'm insulting everyone. I'm not.

I feel free to call a moron a moron. Male or female, it doesn't matter to me in the slightest. That's equality; you have to take the bad with the good.

I don't consider myself a feminist at all. I believe that the term 'feminism' carries an implication of women being better than men, and as I've pointed out elsewhere, creates an adversarial dynamic which doesn't help anyone. Growing up, there was never any question whatsoever that women and men are fundamentally equal in just about every way (well, men aren't so good at getting pregnant, and it's usually kind of messy for women to pee standing up).

Again, I very strongly suggest that you read the original thread in ginmar's journal, and tell me again how much I'm a sexist pig, and how much she even bothered readin anything I wrote. Thus my comment above about the irony burning, that she can't see her own actions. Please don't bother responding until you have, in fact, actually read that other thread.

[odanu.livejournal.com]

I have. It is the thread on which I based my opinion. You objected to her tone and therefore felt free to question her sexuality and her humanity. My opinion stands.

[dirtynumbangel.livejournal.com]

Wow, someone else who doesn't get it.

I objected to: her inability or unwillingness to actually respond to my points, her refusal to grant me any respect, her continual building of straw men.. shall I go on?

As for insulting her sexuality, that happened when, precisely? Oh yes, it must have been when she said "Gee, sweetie, you almost sounded heterosexual for a moment there."

[odanu.livejournal.com]

Gin's journal is her space. She has very clear rules on how to behave in her space prominently posted in her user info. There are certain topics and arguments that have been done to death and she refuses to debate them in her space. You chose to enter her space, ignore her rules, and pick precisely the topics she will not debate on her time.

Respect must be earned. If I entered into someone's home and repeatedly violated the rules of the house, I would expect to be kicked out on my ear, as you were. She asked you repeatedly in your conversation to stop repeating ideas she found offensive (like the idea that you as a man had an equal or better right to define feminism and sexism as a woman has, an idea which is patently ridiculous -- members of the oppressing group, no matter how sympathetic to a cause, do not get to define the problems of the oppressed group-- for example a straight person cannot define the problems of the gay community), yet you continued to in her space to attempt to sanitize her language and her opinions to something you found more acceptable in a feminist, after she told you three times to leave and not comment anymore.

Then you said, in so many words "fuck you". This is the moral equivalent of standing in her living room and shouting at her after she has opened the door and asked you to leave repeated. That does not deserve respect,and anything she said after that point was clearly deserved.

[dirtynumbangel.livejournal.com]

And exactly how have I oppressed women in my life?

Oh, that's right! I HAVEN'T.

Feminists bitch and complain about being seen only as women. I'm not, apparently, allowed to bitch and complain about only being seen as an oppressor. Fuck you and the horse you rode in on. When you grow up and realize we're all in this together, I'll bother talking to you.

[odanu.livejournal.com]

Was there a reason to start cussing at me and generalizing my statements to all feminists? No? Then apparently I hit a nerve. You were called on behaving rudely in someone else's space and somehow this has become about you being lumped in with oppressors? No, this is about you being a hypocrite. You say you're "on the same side", but you get to define the problem and the terms under which the problem gets to be solved, for a problem that isn't yours? No. No. No.

I have not said you personally oppressed women. Gin might have, but I don't remember it and don't have time to look. What I have said is that you have been hypocritical and condescending to Ginmar in her own space, and went into full attack mode when you felt uncomfortable, both with Gin and now, with me. These are the actions of someone who is afraid to face his own motivations and prefers to redefine the problem so he won't have to.

[dirtynumbangel.livejournal.com]

Actually, you're the one who called me a member of the oppressing group.

And again... perhaps you have difficulty comprehending? I'm not sure. Take a look at the thread in gin's journal. Now, actually read it. Notice how I was both polite and respectful? Can you see that? And it was only after gin became shrill, ranty, and completely ignoring and refusing to respond to any points that I made that things got snarky. Is that clear yet? At what point will feminists in general--and, in this specific case, you in particular--that women don't get a free pass for assholish behaviour, any more than men do?

I never said I get to define the way the problem is solved. I was trying to present the ideas that I had always been told were the core of feminism: community, collectivity, cooperation. Again I reference Starhawk's discussions on poer-over versus power-with. I'm still waiting for one of you to tell my why working together is such a bad idea.

I also don't think it's unreasonable to make the general statement that feminists complain about being seen solely as women. Again, as I understand it, the whole point of the feminist movement is that we're all seen as people first. If that's wrong, tell me.

And again... read the damned thread. You'll notice that condescension came after her repeated refusal to actually respond to anything I said, after she became patronizing. And after, I might add, her homophobic comments. Or does she get a free pass on those? If you're going to call me on rude behaviour, you have to call her as well. Otherwise it's... yes, you geussed it: discrimination!

[odanu.livejournal.com]

1) you are a member of an oppressing group (men) whether or not you personally oppress or not, even though you are a member of an oppressed group(gays) as well. The same applies to me. I am a member of an oppressing group (whites) while at the same time the member of an oppressed group (women). As a white person, I have no right to define the terms of oppression for black people, nor determine how much is "enough" or "too far". Similarly, you can't make those determinations for women. You can, however, make those determinations as a gay man, while I can make those determinations as a woman.

2) It's her space, right or wrong. It's not a topic she wants to discuss in her space, and you have no ownership there, either of her time or of her space. Whether I think she's unreasonable in some instances is irrelevant. You assumed a right you did not have: to choose the topic of conversation in her space, and to demand that she answer your objections on her time.

3) Starhawk's ideas are in fact interesting, and a large branch of feminism (myself included) think that they are critical to the movement. However, Gin belongs to a different branch of the movement that believes that before we can be equal, we must push back. I don't agree with her completely, and have told her so. I do not, however, try to waste my time or hers in her venue rehashing an argument she plainly does not want to hear.

4) That is such a complicated subject we could literally debate it for months and end up in circles. There's truth in both views.

5) And again, her venue, her choice of topic. I have called her on her attitude, but rarely in her own journal. People can be as rude as they want in their own living room. If you don't like it, don't visit.

[dirtynumbangel.livejournal.com]

Ah, okay... before women can be equal with men, women have to be more equal than men?

Shades of Animal Farm.

I give up. Goodbye.

[odanu.livejournal.com]

Farewell. You might want to reread what I just wrote. Miscomprehension?

[dirtynumbangel.livejournal.com]

No, I understood precisely what you just said, and it renforced Gin's--and indeed that entire segment of the feminist movement's--utter stupidity. Equality is not, has never been, and will never be achieved simply by the oppressed becoming the oppressors. Look at how well that's worked out for Israel.

[odanu.livejournal.com]

"Starhawk's ideas are in fact interesting, and a large branch of feminism (myself included) think that they are critical to the movement. However, Gin belongs to a different branch of the movement that believes that before we can be equal, we must push back. I don't agree with her completely, and have told her so. I do not, however, try to waste my time or hers in her venue rehashing an argument she plainly does not want to hear."

Miscomprehend much?

[dirtynumbangel.livejournal.com]

Apparently we define 'push back' in different ways. Either way, it proves the point I was trying to make to her, that she freaked on me for: her version of feminism is reactionary and adversarial.

[odanu.livejournal.com]

...but not out of the mainstream, much in the same way that Malcolm X and Martin Luther King were both mainstream civil rights activists. Personally, I think MLK was more effective. I will concede, though, that there is often a time for oppressed people to turn loose their rage and react. First, you get the mule's attention...

[dirtynumbangel.livejournal.com]

Oh, and Gin's rules break down to: "I'll say whatever I want. This is an echo chamber. If you don't agree with me, I'll kick you out."

Very mature. Very grown-up. Very good way to, y'know, actually create a dialogue.

Pathetic.

[odanu.livejournal.com]

They are her rules, and it is her space. If you don't want to abide by her rules, don't visit. I disagree with Gin quite frequently, and she hasn't felt the need to ban me.

[dirtynumbangel.livejournal.com]

Yes, you're a woman. Can you honestly say that if I were a woman, saying exactly what I had been saying, she would have banned me? Not bloody likely, mate.

She's yet another activist who has absolutely zero interest in trying to talk to other people and build bridges. Just like the worst of the gay rights movement, she just wants to rant and rave, and have a crowd of sycophants around her hanging on her every word.

[ginmar.livejournal.com]

#umpteen:

You just hate me because I have a penis. It has nothing to do with the fact that you wouldn't let me define my own life in language I chose, that you didn't listen to the word no, and that when prodded, you lashed out with sexist language.

odanu and I have disagreed many, many times. Never once has she told to go get laid as a means of ending an argument. I have never had to tell her 'no' more than once. Funnily enough, there are guys with whom I vehemently disagree as well, too. SAme thing. They actually listen to what I say.